LFS is totally honest in its approach to all control inputs. It offers anyone the opportunity to operate the car's control with whatever they have, and it says: "If you can make it do this, the sim will let you". Yes, there is no control over steering wheel speed for any control device (you could play with 30 degrees of steering lock if you wished) bu ultra fast wheel movements are not what separates fast drivers from slow drivers.

There is no reason why someone with skill and practise cannot perfectly mimic the precise inputs of an equally skilled and practised wheel driver, with a mouse. Given the same fidelity of control over a real car, the same would apply.
Some might find mouse easier than the wheel, but I have never felt for a moment that mouse gives anyone an advantage, never mind an unfair advantage.
Button clutch, on the other hand.......

Quote from Sobis :

You really don't need to watch your virtual wheel because you can sense how much you're turning with your eyes (and watching how your car behaves, not your virtual wheel).

Wise words my friend.

From my mouse experience, virtual wheel(wheel on, hands on) helps a lot.

Quote from Litro :

From my mouse experience, virtual wheel(wheel on, hands on) helps a lot.

thats what i meant. thats why every mouse driver has wheel and driver arms on. you cant really drive with mouse without them. so some of the capacity that you could use to go faster is wasted on watching the virtual wheel.

Quote from Anthoop :

You know I disagree...some turns/cars then the mouse will beat any wheeler...put pedals with the mouse and I could see a world beater....

Not really... you can use small degrees of rotation and get pretty much the same effect as mouse

Quote from Litro :

From my mouse experience, virtual wheel(wheel on, hands on) helps a lot.

indeed.

Quote from Litro :

From my mouse experience, virtual wheel(wheel on, hands on) helps a lot.

I used to drive with a mouse back in the day and I didn't find the virtual wheel of any particular help. You can see what the car is doing and adjust the input accordingly. As much as you don't look at the real wheel to make the car go straight you don't have to look at the mouse or any other reference except than the car itself. The only thing I found really inferior to the wheel was the digital brake input.

It's different for everyone. I used to drive with the virtual steering on, but without the driver for some time. I got used to it. Then, I put the driver on and had to get used to the driver's hand animation when I turned, because the default cockpit view on cars like FBM don't look quite right. The driver appears to be sitting too far back and almost stretching to reach the steering wheel.

I zoomed in a bit and it was better, but still not ideal, because the mirrors go beyond the screen if you zoom in to the point where you think you're sitting in the right place. I also raced without the virtual wheel and driver, and got used to that too. It all depends on what reference one uses. The early hiccups with, without the driver and virtual wheel, I think, have to do with counter intuitiveness about where you're sitting, driver animation, virtual wheel movements, etc. Ultimately, we all use the road and our relative position with the road as reference.

One big disadvantage with keyboard input for throttle, brakes is that you've got to mimic lifting and braking by intermittent dabs on the throttle and brakes, which will unsettle cars sometimes. It slows you down also. Light and steady input on pedals would, in theory, make cars more stable and fast. Keyboard input also has an advantage in that you don't get any penalty for depressing the pedals too quickly, too much. No such thing.

Mouse steering is better than keyboard, and again there are advantages and disadvantages to this compared to wheels. It's very tough to recover from a spin on faster cars, because you're using one hand and shaking it sideways on a table. On the bright side, mouse steering doesn't tire you physically. A good, wheel, however, makes life fun. I have a wheel, which has input lag from the 50s, 180 degrees total rotation, and the brake and throttle pedals are just big depressible buttons. Once you touch it, it's either full throttle or full brakes. Waste of springs lol. The only car I've been able to drive and enjoy life as a result is the mini cooper from GT Legends.

Peace be upon those who don't have the G27!

But, at the end, if anyone can get past the difficulties with any given input device, life is going to be fun, no doubt!

its possible to get the view looking correct after some messing about with the Y offset and the field of view,i used to have same problem until I sat there and messed with it for a while

Quote from Anthoop :

I think that is the whole point of the thread. Should it be possible to be faster using wheel/kb/mouse?
Disregarding the driver for a moment (and as an example,) then we know that the mouse has the potential to turn the steering faster than wheel...and can also be precise like the wheel.
Making the peripheral used perform equally is an impossible task (even I can see that)...so if you had to choose which peripheral to favour in a driving simulator then which would you opt for?


Now you are ringing a bell in my memory bank.
Come on Nil....I know you can contribute in here.

theres more to it than what controller is used, none of them will make someone fast or not and even after approx. 96,000 miles using a gamepad I recently decided to get a wheel and try that after id already failed trying to convert to mouse but it is going to take quite some time before I can get to the times I was at with gamepad

I always think people doing gamepad in sim racing are thumb gods. How exactly do you tolerate such little steering axis travel?

MARUS has proved it's possible to set a WR even in a FO8 with a mouse (not on oval, but on a track). Though I'm certain most people would find a steering wheel far more reasonable to use in a racing simulator just because you can completely control your car. I used to play LFS with a mouse for about 5 years (I used to drift back then, demo times) and I can say that it's very possible and in fact easy to control your car from the cockpit view without having a virtual steering wheel mainly because, in my opinion, over those 5 years I had acknowledged my muscle memory for my right hand and as long as you keep attention to what you are doing, you can easily do it.

I personally prefer a wheel over a mouse. It's like with any controller..after you master it, you can truly see the potential for it and in my opinion, a racing wheel that also has a set of pedals will most likely make you go far faster after you have mastered it and have the feel for it (except if you are MARUS or Nilex who for some reason sometimes can go insanely fast even with a goddamn mouse lol ) :melting: Nilex.exe; Poland.exe

Quote from hereticlohani :

It's very tough to recover from a spin on faster cars, because you're using one hand and shaking it sideways on a table.

I don't remember having such a big problem with that

Quote from hereticlohani :

On the bright side, mouse steering doesn't tire you physically.

Have to disagree again, for me it can be pretty tiring to the hands and sometimes even the neck during endurance races, because to race consistently I have to keep pretty much exactly the same bodyshape and that can prove to be quite exhausting after a long time of doing it.

Mouse steering ****s up your wrist if you're unable to get your table/chair in a comfortable height

Quote from Keling :

I always think people doing gamepad in sim racing are thumb gods. How exactly do you tolerate such little steering axis travel?

I have to use 0.79 analogue steer smooth and around 0.85 wheel turn compensation then its not too bad

Quote from MadCatX :

I used to drive with a mouse back in the day and I didn't find the virtual wheel of any particular help. You can see what the car is doing and adjust the input accordingly. As much as you don't look at the real wheel to make the car go straight you don't have to look at the mouse or any other reference except than the car itself. The only thing I found really inferior to the wheel was the digital brake input.

seriously?

when you lock your wheel, say 90° you know it. you dont have to watch the wheel that is in front of you, or the ingame wheel to know where it is/the car is at. simple example would be nobody in traffic watches the wheel while driving.

its only bs to claim that you can know where the steering angle is at with mouse -without needing a virtual wheel just because you dont need it when using a wheel.

with mouse you have to watch the virtual wheel as there is no indication of how much lock you are putting. and watching what the car is doing will be too late.

The lack of experience is talking, not you.

@SETH force mode is bad, don't use it!

Quote from Sobis :

The lack of experience is talking, not you.

lack of knowledge is worse.

Quote from DANIEL-CRO :

@SETH force mode is bad, don't use it!

ready to smoke yo azz in any forced cockpit view server.

Quote from S.E.T.H :

seriously?

Dead seriously. As much as you are aware of the position of your hands on the wheel you can be just as aware of the position of your hand on the table. It's arguably more difficult to master but it's mostly a matter of practice.

Quote from S.E.T.H :

so you are saying that the force feedback you get from the wheel has no help?
fastest way around a track is definitely a good set up wheel set.

I disagree that a good wheel is the fastest way around a track (LFS).
For me personally, without a wheel I am completely useless.

Quote from sinbad :

Button clutch, on the other hand.......

Indeed.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

Not really... you can use small degrees of rotation and get pretty much the same effect as mouse

I disagree. Use low rotation on a wheel then the precision is less...sure you can turn the wheels lock to lock faster but it is much more sensitive to any input.

Quote from bishtop :

theres more to it than what controller is used, none of them will make someone fast or not and even after approx. 96,000 miles using a gamepad I recently decided to get a wheel and try that after id already failed trying to convert to mouse but it is going to take quite some time before I can get to the times I was at with gamepad

Yes..no one is saying using this or that controller will make anyone a driving God...

When I was playing this game I spent nearly all my time trying to go fast for just one lap, often other guys of a similar nature would be doing the same....I have observed many people intensely...using all sorts of controllers/set ups etc.
Two of the people named in this thread I have a very good knowledge of...Nilex and Marus.
I regard Nilex as a friend. He uses mouse and knows his limitations...but they are few and far between. He knows how to make the mouse work and knows the game inside out.
I had a fair bit of fun with Marus, however regarding the game I would put him into a different category altogether ......and probably best I leave it at that.

Quote from MadCatX :

As much as you are aware of the position of your hands on the wheel you can be just as aware of the position of your hand on the table. It's arguably more difficult to master but it's mostly a matter of practice.

Think that is true, but want to add something:
This practice takes time. It is not practising brakepoints or racing line or anything like that, it requires a different kind of practice:
It is practising something that is natural when using a wheel.

Thought experiment:
What would happen if you invert your controllls? (left becomes right etc)
At first it would be impossible to drive.
But there is no technical reason why it should slow you down: Afterall the controller (mouse or wheel) is still as precise as before - just inverted.
Over time you can get used to it, it is only a matter of practice.
I think mouse is similiar: You spent lots of practice-effort on getting used to something instead of using wheel where you spend the practice on going faster.
(Of course the first time one uses a wheel it takes some getting-used-to time also. But not for trivial things like "is my steering centered" like you have to think about with mouse)

Quote from Anthoop :

I disagree. Use low rotation on a wheel then the precision is less...sure you can turn the wheels lock to lock faster but it is much more sensitive to any input.

That indeed is the case, but you also get used to that. Using lower rotation than the original of the car can certainly make you faster.

Quote from Gutholz :

Think that is true, but want to add something:
This practice takes time. It is not practising brakepoints or racing line or anything like that, it requires a different kind of practice:
It is practising something that is natural when using a wheel.

Thought experiment:
What would happen if you invert your controllls? (left becomes right etc)
At first it would be impossible to drive.
But there is no technical reason why it should slow you down: Afterall the controller (mouse or wheel) is still as precise as before - just inverted.
Over time you can get used to it, it is only a matter of practice.
I think mouse is similiar: You spent lots of practice-effort on getting used to something instead of using wheel where you spend the practice on going faster.
(Of course the first time one uses a wheel it takes some getting-used-to time also. But not for trivial things like "is my steering centered" like you have to think about with mouse)

Ive gotten used to resting my hands on the table while using my gamepad and if I try to rest my hands on my lap it does alter my perception of the analogue stick movement to the wheel turn
I agree also that all it takes is a bit of time to get used to different methods or controllers but my problem was impatience when I was going to change to using a wheel

I'm not sure how much the real life of karting relates to LFS (I don't drive stock cars much, and formula cars are IMO much more similar to karting), but the "you can't move wheel fast" comments make me wonder why would you want to do that, usually it makes the car nervous and slower, than a well executed smooth line without any corrections. Especially in endurance races, as with the aggressive drive you can shave off a tenth or two of time in qualify or sprint race, but in endurance the smooth consistency usually pays off well.

In LFS with mouse I have problem without virtual wheel, as the acceleration of mouse keeps offseting the middle position of mouse (physically on the desk). With virtual wheel and hands I feel very comfortable with mouse, actually I have more trouble to control computer games with wheel controller (not used to it, and it's rarely as precise as the real thing). In the real life karting it's different story, I can't imagine to steer with mouse. Certainly I wouldn't count it as an advantage in LFS, just different way of controlling it and hereby I deem this discussion quite pointless... Thank for allowing me to enrich it's pointlessness.

Mouse acceleration is shit, and I wouldn't use it even for browsing the web. Acceleration off, adjust steering wheel compensation and mouse sensitivity (control panel).