Quote from silent_wind :

no cockpit view ? i thought i read on NK RSC forum there gonna be a cockpit..it's in the unofficial FAQ stiky..or maybe we're not talkin bout the same cockpit view ..

I think.. <snip> .. i type to slow.

LFS and NR2003 are the only two sims i've really felt connected to, pretty much from the start. rFactor and other ISI products seem to need "getting used to", like learning to spot what you don't feel by visuals or sound. Netkar Namie is challenging, but i still find myself spinning out and really not knowing why, or why i can't correct a slide, etc. Nkpro will find it's way onto my pc when it's out for sure, i like how the cars aren't amazingly powerful, and i hope the "it will run on any namie-capable machine" statement is true.

Quote from axus :

ajp71 said there will be non-cockpit views alongside the cockpit one in contrast to NK naime where there was only the cockpit view.

ok , got it now... well as long as the physics are good and we can have filters it really doesnt matter..

Quote :

As for NR2003 and GTP, I can't say I have spent much time with them...

well, that's a pity , cos you wouda seen the difference..as far as im concerned , i starded LFS from the very first demo ever, as well as the NR2003, so i know them both very well.. try to have some spins with GTP and notice that bite and grip...

as i said before , it really enoys me to start adapting my setups and driving to match those wearied tire behavors if you know what i mean..that's why i've quit LFS for a while now, waiting for somethin to happen bout the tires..i really hope LFS will reach that NR2003 tire physics level !

Quote from filur :

"it will run on any namie-capable machine"

It will technically run, but not necessarily run well.
It has the same requirements, not recommendations.


@Tweaker:
You say a lot of things and imply some more about nK and the devs behind it that I can't really agree with.
As for nK "propaganda" there has not been much of any hyping from the developer's side. It would have been propaganda if the devs had posted all of their info on forums or advertised like crazy, but calling informations they posted about their own product on their own website propaganda is not only inadequate, it's unfair. nK has went under a lot of people's radar so far and it hasn't been paid much attention to in my opinion.

As for implying that nKpro might be a try to just cash in with a product that was never meant to be the best-possible sim they could create at this moment with all its circumstances seems to be short of an insult when you have read a bit more about nK and kunos and possibly talked to him.

As for the wording and possibly over-complex expressions, keep in mind that kunos is no native speaker, so it might make sense to cut him some slack there. I would not suspect this to be an attempt at obfuscation or inflation.



The bottom line post-release will be that people will be able to try it themselves and some will like it and some will not, as with any sim implementation so far.
I have no doubt though that there were not any corners cut unless necessary and then to the utmost benefit of the simulation aspect, trying to simulate as realistic and authentic as possible.

Quote from silent_wind :

first we're talkin bout NK vs LFS here not "all the other sims" , second you said it yourself "hose statements (if coming from NK officially) could be very well all true.", i think NK guys are pretty serious , i guess.. i also compared it to GTP and NR2003 for more specific references..now , i think you got my idea ayway...

concerning your sweet memories from online, you also forgot to recall why i said "f**** retards, but hey , you couldnt help it but bring that shit up here anyway, huh ? the sad truth is there are some retards online really..but i dont think it's the topic of this thread neither the right place to quote things that happen Online..you may wanna stay on topic ..and if you have anythin to say bout the online bitching or whatever , you're more than welcome to PM bout it so you'll get the proper answer to that.. once again , let's stay on topic pls. thx.

It was certaintly on the topic that you started by calling me objective. So once you can understand that any simulations are widely acceptable in my book, and I am not so restricted JUST liking LFS... then you would get my point about why such articles could have either truth or falseness to them. I don't care if I post this in 'your' thread, you post the things that are bound to get a reply like this, so violla! Enjoy!

I think your temper overcomes your ability to understand people... thus you don't agree or take into account with what ANYBODY has said. You just read my posts and say "Oh yes, you just said it right there, now you are finished.... who's next?". I mean, your bolded sense of making a point is absolutely not getting anywhere, as it only just makes your fluency and ideas just seem more retarded than the people you meet online.

So I'd rather not see your own thread come to being contradictions 24/7, when your points against us are not valid because of what you do yourself. Now it would be nice if this thread was all peachy, but think about what you suggested in the very first post... rather controversial as it seems to be a impossible thing to discuss with Netkar's current pro release that has not come out yet. Maybe after a month or so of opinions for that game, then it would be nice to discuss it, and you wouldn't end up with where a lot of us has taken this thread.

Quote from Satorian :

It will technically run, but not necessarily run well.
It has the same requirements, not recommendations.


@Tweaker:

......

The bottom line post-release will be that people will be able to try it themselves and some will like it and some will not, as with any sim implementation so far.
I have no doubt though that there were not any corners cut unless necessary and then to the utmost benefit of the simulation aspect, trying to simulate as realistic and authentic as possible.

Satorian, the bottom line here is that all the readings, articles, and journals, are just support for what will come out when everyone gets to play the game. You guys read way too deep into why I say the readings could be "False" (actually that is the only part you guys interpret). I've stated already that, the readings mean NOTHING until you've tried the game, so if you want to say a Ferrari has super-hyrdo-tiptronic-allocated-stichted-leather-seams in its rear car seats and actually WANT to understand what that means and believe it... then good for you... but once you go see it/test it, opinions can be drawn... and not come here and ask for the untested tire model to be in LFS :zombie:. That is like asking someone if they want a super-fast Punto and they don't know what a Punto is... thus the results are not satisfying. Clearly, the readings could be support for how good the game is (or in this case the tire model), but is it a crime to think there could also be a chance that the game isn't what people expected? Come on now, you are around RSC enough to understand that point of view. And I don't think Kunos's language are issues, his english is perfectly fine, and what he is trying to describe is probably exactly how he intends it.

Quote from Tweaker :

Satorian, the bottom line here is that all the readings, articles, and journals, are just support for what will come out when everyone gets to play the game.

Uh, yes. Like with any other software and any other dev report. Can't see anything at fault there.

Quote :

You guys

I'm not in league with anyone and would appreciate not being lumped together with some abstract user group I don't stand for.

Quote :

read way too deep into why I say the readings could be "False" (actually that is the only part you guys interpret). I've stated already that, the readings mean NOTHING until you've tried the game, so if you want to say a Ferrari has super-hyrdo-tiptronic-allocated-stichted-leather-seams in its rear car seats and actually WANT to understand what that means and believe it... then good for you... but once you go see it/test it, opinions can be drawn... and not come here and ask for the untested tire model to be in LFS :zombie:.

I never did that, so, again, don't lump me in. I don't know either how well the tyre implementation in nKpro turns out. I was just stating that you should not label kunos' explanations of his work and the effort of giving us some behind-the-scenes info "propaganda", "hype" and "mumbo jumbo".

Quote :

That is like asking someone if they want a super-fast Punto and they don't know what a Punto is... thus the results are not satisfying. Clearly, the readings could be support for how good the game is (or in this case the tire model), but is it a crime to think there could also be a chance that the game isn't what people expected?

Find me a quote of me criticizing you for remaining cautios and critical. Again, I was stating prior that I found your slighting of a developer giving insight into his work a bit incomprehensible from my point of view.
I won't know either how nKpro will turn out until I tried it, but I definitely appreciate the information that has been given so far and often contained answers to questions that arose on the forums and contained a fair amount of response to the community.

I would very much like to have you quote which statements of kunos exactly are hype, mumbo jumbo (whatever abstract negative connotation you have there) and propaganda, because I fail to see the base on which you make these accusations and would like to know where our perception differs.

I just wonder how you can compare a nonexistant game (not yet) and its physics to existant LFS... And say, You hope, LFS will reach nk level... You had a time machine, or what? Lets talk about this in 3 or 4 weeks again, when nk is finally out.

I think your are still reading way too in depth with those specific words Satorian. I am not even going to bother trying to explain it, because overall, the one thing that will make us shut up (oh no I put you in the lump) is when we play Netkar Pro for ourselves. Then can we only see how valid or invalid our expectations are.

Not going to bother with this thread anymore, just another typical pre-release fight over issues not many of us even know so much about, as well as protection of people's own expectations. Afterall, a buyer wants to know positive and negatives before making a decision, and it is natural that assumptions are made. But to have someone think your assumptions are completely impossible, just goes to show that people only have the positive attitude for something they've never even tried :rolleyes:

I am pretty sure Netkar will be a good game, but there is always a "BUT"!!!! Maybe not in your world

EDIT: Oh and as for those words, please note my side examples that it was not directed completely at NK or Kunos. rFactor was my prime example, and those words only hold truth to that game in my opinion at least

dudes ! i was comparing the tire models to NS2003/GTP too, and as i already said, that's a specific comparison there...so stop sayin im just bring up NK only.. my idea was to compare it with , in my opinion , the best existing tire physics that are once again NR2003/GTP , and then wanted to know what you think of that upcoming NK pro in that tire "sector"...

im gonna get some sleep now , i'll see ya tomorrow..

ok , i'll be back here when NK pro is out ! we're certainaly gonna have somethin to talk about

see ya soon !

Quote from Hyperactive :

Here is where the personal preference comes in. For me the only sims without the floaty feeling are the GPL, nkar namie and LFS. Everything else feels just floaty with little or none feeling at all. Btw. rFactor is way better though than the rest of isi creations but it still lacks here. imho

I think the LX6 would be a prefect ride if there was a completely flat track on LFS. The car just doesn't like bumps (or me). But again comparing sims comes always down to personal preference. For some people rfactor behaves exactly like they expect a real car to behave or they just like it. Same thing with every sim

does RBR set up correctly feel floaty to you?

Quote from Gabkicks :

does RBR set up correctly feel floaty to you?

RBR is good too..

I think this a rather weird thread. I've read my share about tyre models, yet I don't know how I would have to apply the quoted statement by kunos to simulations and certainly don't know in what technical way LFS and nKP differ. Additionally nKP hasn't even been released yet, so discussing advantages and disadvantages doesn't make much sense yet to me.

Let's bury the hatchet and stop this childish sim trench wars, from both sides.
Of course I'm open to a reasonable debate once it's released.

Enjoy your simming with whatever you prefer.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Ya. I've bought both because I think both are valuable projects and I appreciate the effort going into both. That, and the fact that competition is always good. Hopefully the two will inspire eachother to greater things.

My thoughts exactly. Plus it means I'll have two sims where I can beat Kev (although not by much these days - he's much quicker than he used to be and [driverexcuse] I haven't had the opportunity to practice as much, and getting used to ECCI. But this week I'm at home so I can hopefully have a bit of a play, but I'm back to Logitech pedals as the ECCI wouldn't fit in the car with all my other junk [/driverexcuses]

LFS=playable.


nIKpro=fictional until release,


If anyone has played nkpro and has seen the difference then please step forward and enlighten us, otherwise, pull up a chair and wait until the 10th april to commment.

According to people who HAVE played it, the difference between Namie and nKP (I forget it's nickname) is massive, in a positive sense. But of course, the rest of us are merely making guestimated assumptions based on Stefano's ramblings of the last few years, the stuff we already know for fact, and an idealism that Stefano shares.

Much like with LFS - whilst we don't KNOW what's in the patch we can take a guess. For all we know the new tyre physics could COMPLETELY change the feel of the game, and make it realistic in a way we didn't think possible. So in a way you could say:

LFS = playable, but upcoming patch has almost zero knowns
nKP (whats the I for in your abbreviation?) = unplayable, but upcoming release has a lot of info from the dev(s).

I'm not saying one will be better than the other - I'm quite prepared for both sims to coexist in harmony, albeit with different feels. There isn't one single tyre manufacturer or phyisist who can come up with equations to model tyre behaviour in real time (or even non-real time for that matter), so the chances of two computer simulations based on different phylosophies feeling the same to us is marginal at best. And I don't think that will necessarily make on better than the other. LFS is very special - the car behaviour is unnervingly realistic, but I believe that nKP will, either on release (doubtful) or after a few patches (more likely) give LFS a run for it's money. And I believe that Scavier are up for the challenge of staying ahead.

Sorry to ramble, but I don't want to become a nK lover in an LFS world, or an LFS lover in a nK world. I want to be a realistic simulator lover in a world filled with nK's and LFS's, and more if it's made. Maybe even one day ISI/Gmotor/2inchgapbetweenroadandtyres will get a look in, but it's a long way off I fear.

This is probably a stupid thing to say and will only result in stirring up trouble, but: when someone says they think tyre model A is more realistic than tyre model B, how often does that really mean, "I can keep it on the road in game A, but in game B I keep having these frustrating spins"?

I like the tyre model in NR2003/GTP very much, but I wouldn't know how to tell you whether it's realistic, having not driven any big heavy 750HP cars on slicks.

It strikes me as entirely possible that the tyre model in LFS right now is closer to accurate than we would like to admit, and what is getting in the way is the lack of visceral feedback which makes slides in a real car much easier to catch. I'd really like it if Scawen released a physics patch tomorrow that made the GTRs a bit less horrible through low-speed corners. I'd drive around feeling proud of my improved ability to handle these beasts. But imagine that a week later someone who really knew their tyre physics then told me, "Actually, the old LFS model was closer to reality, and this new patch has overcompensated in the other direction to make the game more playable". How could I mount an argument without a PhD in physics and a lot of time on a test track in the relevant cars?

All in all, I just think people like LFS (or any other simulation actually) because it 'feels right'... regardless if they have ever driven a real race car (or any car for this matter) at high speeds or not. Some like the way LFS feels, some like the way GTR, or GPL feels... they all have different characteristics. Most of the time, the opinions of what people prefer with one simulation over another is just how good and comfortable they feel when driving that particular simulation. A lot of people get frustrated about LFS sliding all over the place, and wish it had grippy physics like some other simulations. However there are people that disagree and consider the complete opposite, where LFS feels great and control problems aren't an issue at all, while other sims just are hard to comprehend as realistic. It is opinions of both worlds and nobody is going to like every 'simulation'.

Toughest part about the simulation biz if you ask me. Which is ultimately the whole reason why threads such as these pop up every now and then on so many forums. It ISN'T a case of "fanboys", that is the incorrect word for anyone liking a simulation, it is more of a personal preference... Being a fan of something surely is your own preference, but nowadays, simulation enthusiasts are only marked 'fanboys' because there is no other way to describe a personal preference, even the ridiculers that call us those names have this tag of fanboyism, but they try and act like they really don't.

Kev -- basically I agree with you: my limited experience also suggests that things are just a little bit wrong in LFS. My post was speculation about what might be behind some of the complaints.

In the summer I'll do a three way comparison of LFS, nKP and a real F3 car on slicks... And if I can manage it I'll get onboard footage to try and assist with that.

The lack of physical feedback, other than the poor technology of FFB (come on hardware manufacturers, surely you can do better) really is the biggest 'problem' of any simulation, and it must be tempted for any game designer to bump up the grip values a bit to make it more playable - a good example of that is the rF's F1 cars. Sure I'm not fast in them, but I've barely practiced. Yet you can do silly things with the cars at any speed but it just refuses, almost, to spin. LFS on the other hand takes a more realistic approach by saying 'okay, so you can't feel the forces, but I'm not going to nanny you around with extra grip or anything'. As soon as Scawen fixes the tyre issues (or rather improves as I doubt what we get in the next patch will be perfect, but then nothing is) to do with low speed and grip recovery then we'll see the cars behaving more realistically. Getting rid of the high nose bug will also make the cars a bit easier to drive I think, as the high front low rear setup makes the cars very difficult to drive consistently fast on the limit. With a less compromised setup i.e. sensible suspension values all round, it'll be a lot closer for everyone. The quick guys will still be quick and the slow guys will still be slow, but the margin between the two should close I think.

There are so many areas LFS can be improved. None of them are huge improvements, but just little tweaks here and there, thats all. nKP is unknown at the moment, but it's been in [private] development for about the same time as LFS. The difference of course is that Kunos has gone for the single seater approach to begin with, and has a more pure 'unmolested' development period, whilst LFS has had a more public evolution with road cars (until S2). I think it's fascinating seeing the two approaches, and I wonder how much of nK Scavier will look at, and how much of LFS Stefano has checked out... I bet they say very little, but in truth I bet they'll have a play or two to see what they like about it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

There are so many areas LFS can be improved. None of them are huge improvements, but just little tweaks here and there, thats all. nKP is unknown at the moment, but it's been in [private] development for about the same time as LFS. The difference of course is that Kunos has gone for the single seater approach to begin with, and has a more pure 'unmolested' development period, whilst LFS has had a more public evolution with road cars (until S2). I think it's fascinating seeing the two approaches, and I wonder how much of nK Scavier will look at, and how much of LFS Stefano has checked out... I bet they say very little, but in truth I bet they'll have a play or two to see what they like about it.

There is a difference though in kunos not having worked fulltime on it for most of that time and from I could gather I wouldn't be surprised if it lay on his HDD untouched for weeks at a time when it still was a hobby project.

There are things I don't like about LFS, like parts of the tyre modelling (don't know whether it's the model or the data) and the sound quality, but I think the LFS devs are all very talented inidivduals and will get things right, given the time. My trust in that is why I'm keeping up with the LFS development without spending much time playing it at the moment. (According to my lfsworld.net stats I have driven less than 1200 miles. )

well NK pro is gonna be released today... im really curious to check it out...

Watching from aside at the downfall of gaming industry, I consider us lucky that we can choose what sim we like the most. Not like EA or Sony is ramming down Gran Tourismo5 2k6 John Madden edition down our throats...

Guess you won't know till 12pm CET

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

Quote from ajp71 :

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?