Quote from scania :

I wan't, but I hope that it can turn on\off by host

erm.. why?

would you also like to turn tyre off different tyre compounds or gravel at the rallycross tracks?

The only noticable bumps in LFS are on the oval and South City. -1 for laser scanned tracks and +50 for moar bumps on the existing tracks.

Quote from scania :

I wan't, but I hope that it can turn on\off by host

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

WTF!? Seriously.. WTF!?

Thanks scania.. you made me laugh already this mornin and it's not even 07:00 yet



Regards,

Ian

Maybe he thinks laser scanners will be outfitted on the cars, therefore it warrants a server option, lol

Quote from Becky Rose :

LFS does need more track content

Indeed.

I would like to see new tracks, and I mean new tracks and not only variations of existing ones, even though there also could be some.

This is especially wanted for the fast cars such as the big GTR's as it's getting boring to do always the same set of tracks, month after month, year after year, in every league.

I don't particularly care if there are real tracks or not in the future. I'm never going to drive the real-life counterpart, so to me it's just the same as a fictional track. In the amount of time it would take to accurately create a real life track for LFS, several fictional tracks could be made. One or too real life tracks would be lovely of course, if they were well known. But if the dev tools are going to be released with S3, then they could be user made.

Laser scanning tracks is just a gimmick. An expensive one at that. Sure, it'll feel like the actual track, but to those who will never drive it first hand, so will one drawn out without laser guidance. If Eric learns to use the Z-axis that is

But LFS does need more tracks. Just one or two, solely to keep people interested. Maybe even just a few new layouts of existing tracks would do the trick until S2 Final/S3. There's heaps of unused layouts for the existing tracks, they just need to be joined up

I think this would be a good idea... Everybody driving more consentrated.
I actually think that everybody has to learn the tracks over again and not just following the optimal raceline, but also thinks about the cars suspension too.

For me the best thing would be pseudo-randomly generated bumps.
When you select the track, you give a few parameters, like average bump height, average bump length, average bump width, and a large number which is used to seed the pseudo-random algorithm.

And it takes the track and generate bumps at loading time, slightly moving track points. And the large seed number ensures that bumps are the same for everyone with the same parameters. Using the AI path it can generate very realistic bumps you get on a real track (more often in turns, oriented according to path...etc).

And using different seeds give different bumps-> infinity of variation for the tracks. Every set of parameters give a unique track,everyone has the same on a given server.

Quote from AndroidXP :

- I would pay for them, but
- It wouldn't be terribly important to have them now, and
- More fantasy tracks with maybe a bit more attention to a characteristic, bumpy surface would be fine too

couldnt agree more
i really only care about more tracks more bumps and more interesting corners... fictional or not i dont give a damn

Quote from Lotesdelere :

This is especially wanted for the fast cars such as the big GTR's as it's getting boring to do always the same set of tracks, month after month, year after year, in every league.

dont you run a server thats been stuck at as national for almost 3 years now?

Quote :

In the amount of time it would take to accurately create a real life track for LFS, several fictional tracks could be made.

Are you sure? It seems logical to me that it would actually be faster to scan a track than to make one up from scratch, especially at the level of detail that a decent scan could provide.

from wiki

Quote :

In cases where a real-world equivalent of a model exists, it is much faster to scan the real-world object than to manually create a model using 3D modeling software. Frequently, artists sculpt physical models of what they want and scan them into digital form rather than directly creating digital models on a computer.

Perhaps Brendon will drop by sometime to post (and be able to go into details)- but for now, if anyone hasn't heard of this technology before and would like to find out more, there's some nice info on the development of the Eastern Creek track, over here. Going by what's written there, it took him roughly two days to gather all the necessary scanned data for the track- (all up a couple of months of part time work from beginning to end, including writing the modifications to his track building software to accomodate point cloud data, refining tools, seeking permission from track owner(?) etc...).

I think that the wiki means that it's quicker to laser scan and draw a real track, then to try and draw without a laser scan

Of course, if Eric makes the tracks by carefully planning each one out first, it may take longer than a laser scan. But maybe he makes 'em up as he goes along like me, IDK

We need the nubergring laser scanned. It would have finished being scanned just before s3 is released.

Yeah, laser scanned tracks would be fine, if there's some guy in back, who have done all the job and is offering them to devs (otherwise it would be too much expensive and it would be probably added as paid content or it could raise cost of license).

I am all for that and i'm also going repeat not only myself, but also all people who posted it in this thread: Yes, we need new tracks like nothing else.

(And i see that this discussion is slowly turning up into something, what i've witnessed lot of times here. )

iRacing makes a huge step forward with delivery of accurate tracks, an excellent physics model and great netcode and will be the dominating sim for the near future. Unfortunately this may stifle competition, especially as people get “locked in” to iRacing; when it comes time to renew they will be faced with either losing all their cars/tracks, or pay another year’s subscription. I’m no iRacing hater, in fact I think it’s the best thing to happen in the scene for some time, but I would hate to see the demise of other racing sims.

I would like to see LFS be more competitive and there are two things that I can help with:
1. The use of laser scanned tracks.
2. The ability to add more 3rd party track content.

The Eastern Creek project was a “Proof of Concept” using cheap laser equipment and rushed development tools, but even so it’s been a great success and is now recognised as one of the best tracks in rFactor. To appreciate it fully you need to drive on it using a car with stiff suspension and with the RealFeel plugin installed and set up correctly (sometimes a pain in rF). I’ve been a LFS player long before rF and I would say that LFS has greater fidelity of feeling and would benefit even more from the laser scanned tracks.

As for Real vs Fictional, I would agree that a very well made fictional track can be just as good as a laser scanned real life one, but I also think the time to make it would be comparable, in costs, to scanning one (using my methods). Incorporating the minor details such as the way camber changes through a corner, small bumps, or the rough areas under braking can be very time consuming. No offence to Eric and his building skills as I understand the enormity of creating many tracks with great levels of detail, but the surface variation you currently see in LFS is nothing compared to what you get with a laser scanned one and the driving feeling is very noticeable. This is not a problem unique to LFS either, all driving sims seem to suffer the same fate.

With BTB I developed a way to create detailed track meshes from the laser scanned data in much less time (cost) than other laser scanned projects. There are more in the pipeline but none of this will come to LFS without the devs support.

The second item will no doubt be controversial since it will mean an influx of tracks built with varying quality. But the modding scene also generates some of the best tracks around for rFactor and you find that people naturally gravitate towards the better ones.

I have written to the devs in the hope they might open up the track building scene but have been around LFS long enough to know they work to their own agenda and are always busy. I would still encourage that people continue to let them know politely your feelings about having additional content. Hopefully we can open up some means of getting more, very detailed work into LFS.

Where's the "I've no idea whether laser-scanning of tracks is just a gimmick or not, so I don't know" option?

Where's the "Plz laz0r scan Sussex + maek it liek w all roads 4 cruizin" option?

Poll sucks tbh.

Quote from Becky Rose :

it'd be nice to see a few real hairpins like Druids at Brands, and some off-camber odd-lined corners like Russel Bend at Snetterton. I can't help but wonder if there are limitations to the design tools that prevent making corners too tight ! A few extremes of camber like Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch would also be nice

I fully agree with you, if we cant have real tracks have tracks made up from parts of real tracks so no fees like Brandserton or Snett Park

Becky, add to your list "The mountain" at Cadwell Park, I once did a charity event using my 2001 Focus 4x4 World rally Car to take passangers and when i asked what he thought one passanger said

"Just fit a toilet roll holder to the passangers side for when you go over the mountain"

I always smile going over that corner since.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Plz laz0r scan Sussex + maek it liek w all roads 4 cruizin"

Ay loev teh inglish

Kev, there probably should have been another poll option along the lines of 'I haven't driven on laser scanned tracks, so I can't say'- but I couldn't work out how to edit the poll. No idea what your other suggestion is though..

I haven't driven the Eastern Creek track or the iRacing ones, I'm just faithful that laser scanning will be a big thing in the years to come. I don't see the point of having a wonderful tyre physics model when the actual track surface is so simplistic- these things must be two sides of the same coin imo. Laser scanning also looks like a fairly fast way to get good results, with a bonus of having something accurately based in reality. Just these two points alone (if acted on) should go some way to helping satisfy much of the criticism currently being levelled at LFS- no new content, and no real content.

I think Piddy's offering LFS something great, I would be dissapointed if the community and devs did nothing to support him.

Can we laser scan my butt if we are laser scaning stuff???

Quote from AstroBoy :

Can we laser scan my butt if we are laser scaning stuff???

Sure, I'm betting many people already run rings around it.

I think two issues are being mixed up. One is that LFS has imaginary tracks, the other is that the tracks are too smooth. Both points may decrease realism and immersion. Laser scanning is supposed to solve both, but I wonder which issue is most important.

LFS only has imaginary tracks. Instead of binning them, is it possible to increase the variation in surfaces, with the help of some automated tools? Or do people simply want real-life tracks, and is laser scanning a quick way to get results?

The lack of real-life tracks is the main reason I stop playing LFS for extended periods of time.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've posted in threads requesting real-life track content. I'm not expecting the dev's to create them, just let someone else do it.

Piddy's post is a perfect example of this. He's a guy who seems to have the know-how and gear to get the job done.

I've personally been involved in the creation and testing of real life tracks (Bathurst for SCGT was the first I took photo's and drove/tested) and would be more than happy to devote a weekend to do so again.

I think I'm going to give iRacing a go. :banghead:

Quote :

but I wonder which issue is most important.

For me it's more of a quality issue, coupled with a small degree of concern about the general slowness of content development. I'm not that worried about having a real track (others are though), but I would like to see a potential increase in track detail, and I would like to see a potential increase in tracks. Ultimately, I would love to see a real track or two in LFS as well.

As someone said, you could take bits and pieces from everywhere, and stitch a track together, I think some of the LFS ones are already inspired by segments of RL tracks. If you wanted to do the same thing via the scanning method, and go around choosing different bits of road/track- that would be possible I guess, but it'd probably be much easier and faster to go set up at one track and do the whole thing there in one or two sittings. Imaginary or not, it comes down to time, resources, skill, and technology. In the case of RL tracks, permission and location are additional factors.

I don't suggest scanning is the only option for obtaining better tracks, but it seems a good, practical option. The fact that it's potentially able to kill so many birds with one stone seems a significant bonus.

edit:

Quote :

LFS only has imaginary tracks. Instead of binning them, is it possible to increase the variation in surfaces, with the help of some automated tools?

It's the current crop of 'real' tracks in other sims which probably need to be binned, because laser scanning has raised the accuracy bar.

Bump.. Great interview on SRT Piddy I figured I'd bump this thread because your post really deserves more attention. It would really be nice to have some quality content come from of our talented community members.

Thanks for the heads up Technique

I've put up a link to the interview on the first post of this thread.