Well the last few nights I've got back into playing LFS more frequently but I have found that there a lot of drivers about now who seem to have their own 'rules.' I'm not meaning people who are still learning and are just slower but the ones who just seem to be like the wreckers in the demo days.

For example today in one race I got knocked off by a driver, but I just blew the horn in the hope he might have realised he did something wrong. Didn't get a sorry but that didn't bother me. Then when I managed to get him back in sight he did it to someone else. He continued to do it in a lot of the races to the stage where he actually wrecked me from the lead into T1 with no brakes at all. I voted to ban but for some reason some people don't seem to realise what the feature is for . In the end I threatened the guy that I would have the replay passed around and he then said, "Sorry, my pedals are broken." I knew they weren't cause he was still driving after he wrecked me illepall Then guess who I see 5 mins later in a different server the same guy with was up to his games running into things on purpose, weaving down the stright and running into people. This time he had an accomplice who would wreck each other and generally cause chaous.

My main reason in this post as we see many times around here is that this really doesn't look good for newcomers to Live for Speed. The system for banning the devs have given us is perfect for making liscensed servers wrecker free but the users need to use it. I love Live for Speed and it's the only game I play but the last few days I've ended up quiting because of these people.

Whats everyone else thoughts on the driving in general ?? Am I just picking the wrong server

I have a couple of replays if anyone is wishing to see them just drop me a PM

Keiran

Well, theirs not much you can do about it. Some people are jerks, and always will be. Just be grateful their not on a real track

One of the reasons I've posted is just the lack of people who will ban people for being wreckers. I've seen people get banned for far less than that. Like in a racing accident where both partys were to blame I've seen one of them ending up baned but in a 100% certain situation on whats happened people should really ban. If people don't the system might as well not be there.

Keiran

I hate to see people get upset by this sort of thing.You just need to stick at it and meet the nice people.

The sort of behavour described above is something I never would allow for. Neither a newbie, nor a veteran. It's plain wrong.
When ever I have my host machine running I have it save the replays automatically, and anyone that experience this sort of stuff on my server just have to email me about the time it occured and I'll have a look at the replay. If it's beyond all doubt that the person accused of "ill behaviour" is in fact doing it on purpose or by neglecting other drivers and general racing rules, that driver is banned.
I sort of hope that my server will become a santuary for good clean racers that way. Both newbies and oldies

Quote from thisnameistaken :

FTR: I think I can just about count the number of intentional wreckers I've seen in S2 on the fingers of one hand; that's a way better ratio than I've seen in pretty much any other multiplayer.

Same here, in licensed servers. And I used that same finger to show the 1 true intentional wrecker what I thought of him. I've seen bad drivers, people spinning out wrecking the leaders under a blue flag situation, people ignoring blue flag and cutting off passing attempts by the leaders, poor attitudes, but when you look at the actual intentional wrecking, ie, the guy who turns around and drives the wrong way on purpose, keeps it floored straight through you in a turn, etc. I've only really seen 1. I'm with you Kev, and I think we've both said this in other threads as well, about not blind voting. If I know you and you are respectable and vote, I will trust your judgement and vote, but I don't blindly vote. "Wreckers" are not common at all in S2, just the poor drivers, inconciderate drivers, and bad drivers. They don't need banned, they need explanation, especially with the new guys. There needs to be a little more toleration for the new guys so that they can learn and we are the ones that should be teaching, not banning them so they thing "WTF did I do?" when they may really not know or understand what they did. At least this applies in the US evenings. There aren't alot of racers here, so there isn't a problem. I don't know about the UK/Europe crowd. I know when I'm at work and pull up LFSWorld, I'm amazed at how many are racing when I see maybe 8 servers with racers in the evenings, usually only 1 or 2 with enough cars to have a race.

Quote from Clownpaint :

.....

Seriously though, the standard of driving has detereorated recently. We seem to be having an influx of new faces lately, the majority of people I see and meet these days have just bought S2 or had it under a month. Scawen and co must be doing alright for themselves!

Yeah, It's the After X'mas Crowd. DUring the Early Morning and mid day, I
get to get online sometimes, and there's a bit of an increase and yeah, I've
seen intentional wreckers more than a few times. I usually can't vote the
wrecker out cause my K/B sits on top of the monitor when I set the
wheel up

But I imagine those types will fade out soon enough. Trouble is when they
do give it up, they'll probably bad mouth the game to other people, using Half memorized critisizms from a review and a load of B.S. they make up
on their own.
And of course these ppl will listen to them... but then again, do we really want their friends or members of the same defective gene pool playing anyways?

LOL Maybe the developers, when given ample evidence that any given
person is a wrecker, could turn over that person's account information
over to like Scotland Yard or interpol. I bet most intentional wreckers have other "character flaws" like starting fires or torturing helpless animals or something.
How people behave in Online games is sometimes brought about by the percieved anonimity and isolation from whoever they're messing with.
If they continue to behave like this, they might lose their inhibitions that
keep them from acting out in the real world.
And as far fetched as it may sound, the kid that joins servers only to stop
in the middle of the track today, may grow to be a person that strangles old people tomorrow.

Quote from keiran :

Then guess who I see 5 mins later in a different server the same guy with was up to his games running into things on purpose, weaving down the stright and running into people. This time he had an accomplice who would wreck each other and generally cause chaous.

That is the most irritating thing to me, its ok when theres one, but then his little friend gets involved. I can just imagine them on MSN or something giggling away like the little children they are.

Quote from sidi :

The problem is that most will not vote unless they see with there own eye's and you can shout wrecker till your blue in the face ppl still dont vote I opoligize if my swearing offended anyone tonight on the olfsl practice server but we all have our breaking point and mine has broke good and proper,after nearly 60,000 miles in lfs i find it very sad that i don't enjoy s2 and i very much doubt i'll bother with public servers its just not worth the grief.

What servers are you using? There are plenty of good ones out there. Join up to a club or something where the users are all clean.

Quote from cgrassham :

What servers are you using? There are plenty of good ones out there. Join up to a club or something where the users are all clean.

How can I join a club?

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

How can I join a club?

x2

East kid, thats deep phsycology your getting into there. I wouldn't class intentional wreckers as potential Granny Bashers, ther're just slightly deranged and selfish. To intentionally wreck is a very selfish act when you think about it, it shows a complete disregard for convention and 'game' rules. We all know the kinda kid who does it, he was the loner in the school playground, often a bit violent. Might even be a bit of a bully, but very insecure. Would take all the best toys and never share them. Often breaking them so nobody else could play with them too. Maybe had arseholes for parents, maybe just parents who's skills at parenting left a lot to be desired. Maybe a bit fat, couldn't compete in sports very well, never got picked for teams, so feels like he's getting his own back at all those barstards who never chose him for the Football team, never let him join in their games, never let him come to their houses. He claims victim status, thinks the world owes him one.

You see the kinda guy at work, you see him giggling at the pain of others. He finds Tramp Fight club funny, he torments the secretarys, sucks up to the boss. Plays hurtful jokes in the name of 'It's only a joke lighten up'. The kinda guy that never gets invited out to the office nights out, but manages to find out when and where and turns up anyway. Then spends the rest of the night trying to turn everyone against each other and ruining it for all and sundry.

You see him at the sports club, the hyper competative but rarly winning Arsehole. Will fight a point if he is loosing but will gladly turn a blind eye if his squash ball didn't quite make the line and you didn't notice. Doesn't think exsessive body barging is a bad thing whilst playing a non contact sport. He will break down every last point if he has won, going into extreme detail about how he 'WHIPPED YOUR MOTHER ****ING LILLY WHITE ARSE' (Quote) from here into next week, but if you win he will find every excuse to cut you down, to demand a rematch, to say you cheated, to say he should have won that but he let you win it out of sympathy.

You see him down the pub, the one with all the bullshit, the gob the mouth. But when challenged never has the backup and just gets stroppy when put into a corner. The guy that you are always trying to get away from but who will always come and talk to you. Or rather talk at you. He isn't interested in your stories or your anecdotes. He just wants you to listen. about how he kicked his bosses Arse at Squash. How he used to be really good at school and how he was friends with everyone. How he knew Bruce Springsteen and supplies most of the country with crack cocaine. How he can down 12 pints and not feel a thing but is actually paraletic after three. The kinda guy that knows your into computer games and tells you that he's just started playing this online racing simulator called LFS, but whats really good about it right, is that you can really **** everyone up. Then they get really ****ed of with you and try and vote you off, but it never works so I just really **** 'em, up even more. ****ing take out the leader, 'it him full on. Never laughed so much in my life . . .

You all know the kinda guy. So do yourselfs all a favour. Next time you see that guy. Hit him. He won't hit back, even if you are smaller than he is. Just look strong and menacing. Hit him hard (infact it doesn't need to be hard, these guys go running to their mummy at the first hint of real trouble) stare at him and tell him that in no uncertain terms that if he ever sets eyes on a computer screen bearing the logo LFS, he's in for a supreme kicking. Just tell him NO!. Don't go there. Or else he's in for a proper shoeing.

In fact whilst your there, tell him not to go to the pub anymore, because he's really pissing off the barmaids. They're fed up of clearing up his puke from the bogs.

Now thats psycology (Did I spell it right this time?)

And whilst I'm on my diatribe. Back to the matter in hand, i.e. Wreckers and shit like that. I have been booted of servers before for fairly inocuous reasons. But it is difficult when you join a new server or you are trying oiut a new car and trying to get a set right. It doesn't take much sometimes for an even experianced racer to cock up and ruin a race. Shit does happen. I am beginning to recognise names in the comminity and I know who I can trust to race against and who I can't. My racing style refelcts that, sometimes racing closer than normal, sometimes giving people a lot more space. I don't jump on the kick vote if I havn't seen the incident, but if I know the person who initiated the vote, I trust their judgement and vote too. If I initiate the vote I try and explain why I have doen it. I think, with the kick vote you should be placed in Limbo, A place where you can't race but you can still explain yourself or beg forgiveness. This would still be open to abuse as you will get spammers who fill the chat with drivvel, but then a second vote will boot them. I suppose that couold all get quite complicated with reinstate votes and revotes and on and on.

Anyway, I think my baby has just shit her nappy. Happy days.

*Edit* Nappy update. She had. It was a goodone too.

Only been on LFS a few times since Christmas, been on a couple of great servers in the GTR/XFR, getting good advice which helps the learning process seeing as I have very little experience in either of them. Having said that the rest of the servers have been full of wreckers.

As regards to the horn, it really, really pisses some people off, if people hold you up because you start using the horn and loads of 'BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG JUMP OVER THE ARMCO I'M WITHIN HALF A MILE OF YOUR CAR' thats fair enough.

I will never let someone through in the middle of the BL chicane or the AS historic chicane, even if I've just mid-raced joined and they've caught me at a bad moment when I'm still bedding the car in, they're just going to have to wait, no point in sending SPAM, which affects everyone on the server, or bashing your horn, and if someone bashes me out the way then I will get very pissed off, more so seeing as it wasn't for position and they'd have been let through when I felt it was safe.

Enough ranting for now but remember:

Under a blue flag the faster car makes a pass, the lapped car doesn't defend, but equally doesn't have to jump off the track.

The other thing that really annoys me is yellow flags, under a yellow flag you do not pass. I've seen plenty of fast racers crash out under yellows, and there's nothing more annoying than when you and the car ahead of you slow down for a yellow when there are clearly cars all over the place ahead of you and some twat powers past, overtaking three cars before piling into a stationary car, that kind of wreckless driving is on the same level as deleberate wrecking IMO.

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

How can I join a club?

http://cleanracersclub.org/crcweb/

Yellow fags just don't have the same meaning in LFS as in RL. Half the time you get Yellows and the guy has either recovered or pitted anyway which makes the Yellow redundant. So you either keep thepower on, with the expectation that either the Yellowee is either off track, pitted or still going, or you slow down for nothing and loose track position to those who don't give a monkeys. If you had recovery time, or a pace car, broken bits of car on the track, a striken car that can't go anyway untill the AA man cometh, then maybe the Yellow would be far more effective. But none of that happens so a yellow flag will continue to mean nothing more than 'Warning, learner driver and/or cock ahead'.

I think I may have been in the same server as you Keiran . and I remember the comment about broken pedals lol , I had the worst nights racing ever last night many races got knocked off lap 1 (as nat rev XFR btw) and people are not looking around them enough when colse racing , maybe its just a post xmas break thing as people settle into the new year . I dont jump on the vote/ban bandwagon unless someone posts a good reason or I see it myself same with restarts , I am goiong to hit the servers again tonight looking for better races Im sure theres more greatraces than bad ones lets hope so .

SD.

TBH, unless you are racing with people you know, i think it is presumptious to think that other racers will race clean.

by that i dont mean blatant wrecking, but their inability to be aware of who is around them and to be able to make clean and appropriate passes.

alot of racers can be fast, but i think the mark of a real racer is to be clean and fast! i try to be both

its a shame that you get proper nobs that purposely drive dangerously on S2 servers, but i can only say keep going and lookout for the safer/fairer servers. there are quite a few.

also, if you stick to racing with a crowd that know you then they are more likely to back up your ban claims.

Yellow flags are a problem because there is no penalty if passing under yellow. And most people don't care about them. And 9/10 times there isn't any danger, LFS seems to throw the yellow flag sometimes when not needed and sometimes not when it should. Of course people should always slow down and not pass under yellow, no matter if there is or is not visible danger.

But it just is that yellow flag is usually shown when there are many cars on track sideways, on roof etc.. And you just pick the best and safest line and might accidentally () pass some one there...

But one thing just drives me crazy. In the start when some one accelerates from the start and just bofere T1 notices that he is going too fast to avoid collision he rams some one and then shouts "sorry, my bad, very sorry" and accelerates towards the next corner with non-damaged car while the other one looses control of his car and hits the walls and wrecks his car totally. Or both get wrecked.

And instead of ramming the other guy he could have avoided the collision simply by driving off the track without touching anybody. He may have avoided the collision but decided to use some one else as a bumper.

The gentleman rule: Avoid collision, never ram anyone, always try to avoid contact, even if you need to pull off track. And sometimes I even check if someone is coming too fast from behind and try to steer away from his path. Yes, it may cost me some positions but at least my car is undamaged and I can continue race. Check my replay here LINK. Check the last lap from me. Last corner.

Using bad language will never make me vote to kick someone. At least an explanation of the accident is needed. Comments like: "idiot n00b, use your brakes fu*** sakes!!!11", or "wtf was that. Go f*** yourself". The press "1" to kick <player>. No way. If the player keeps doing nasty stuff then get rid of him but always first tell him what he did and why he shouldn't do it. Can't be that hard. Patience. Of course here are people who should be "removed" but at least I don't see them everyday...

EDIT: Forgot one thing. Give room for people coming back on track. Just drive the other side of the road. He may not have checked his mirrors or something else. But chances are smaller to hit him if you take some precautions.

i think the problem is the volume of people switching from Demo to S2 atm. I think once they are more experienced it will level off a bit. But i dont think it will ever be the way it used to be when the community was smaller.

It's was kinda like a small rural village with no crime at all. Then the village builds up and turns into a town... then the crime starts.

Please bare in mind slowing for a yellow does not mean braking on the middle of a straight when there is no visible danger, as that just causes a danger. It means stop racing and go into corners not totally commited, almost race speed but slow enough to give you a chance to change your line if you have to.

The majority of yellow flags IRL do not occur because there is a car parked on the racing line, they are there to reduce the risk of more cars piling into cars and marshalls off the circuit, they should still be obeyed in LFS.

If you hit a car that has spun in the middle of the track because you couldn't avoid it due to being side by side with another car or you were too commited in a corner and then start bitching about the fact that they'd spun (not the same as a car that is recovering) then you deserve a kick at the very least.

@ sidi - it's more the new cars don't offer as close racing IRL, they simply can't, however well they are being driven as at the speeds they run at you simply can't be wheel to wheel without taking each other out. IMO the day LFS simulates tangling open wheel cars the better, it won't cause chaos like some would fear just an end to this tapping and rubbing bollocks that happens on FOX servers atm. If touching ends your race like IRL there will be no need to worry about lag or idiots bumpdrafting you in an open wheeled car.

Same goes for kerbing, IRL the BL Green chicane would destroy any single seater that tryed to take it flat.

I'll offer the perspective of one of those who is new to the game.

I'll start with the positives, I've had lots of "sorry mate" when somebody has knocked me off,lots of "thank you" when I've moved over for a blue flag, and nobody's ever sworn at me, or tried to ban/disconnect me just because I'm 5 seconds+ down on the leaders, so generally speaking my online experience has been very enjoyable and less "1337-ist" than some of the other games I've played.

This game suffers somewhat from not having had a commercial release,there aren't many commercially run servers, almost all the public servers out there belong to team/clan and in the context of other games that would mean that the word "public" would have to be taken with a pinch of salt, since they'd usually be full of clanners and server regulars...not the best place to cut your teeth in the online mode of the game you're playing. So it's nice to be able to find so many places to play where people aren't going to have a "wtf are you doing here" type attitude

Unfortunately there has to be some negative to go with that. I've also had quick drivers tagging the rear of my car and spinning me out because they've failed to account for the fact that I'm slower in the corners, I've had many many people come across from the side, and take my nose off because they're not using their side view buttons, and plenty of times I've seen "blue flag clear the line!!!" and realised that me being last/close to it, I need to be aware of what's going on. More often than not it's been half a lap before I've seen anything coming up behind me, by which time I've made a couple of mistakes and am more likely to make more, since I'm paying more attention to the mirror and the map than I am to the road.

Bottom line is renting servers costs money, and I respect anyone who pays for one and then makes it public without asking for contributions, and I'll always obey the house rules and try not to upset anyone. I appreciate it's frustrating for someone who can consistently be within a second of the WR time to be on a server full of people who are 10 seconds slower than that, but if I may offer an opinion, it would be that you go where the game is, and therefore need to find the level in the game you're playing, and as long as those who don't have a decent level of skill are prepared to account for those who do, then the same respect really ought to go the other way. I'm reminded of an old FarCry clanmate of mine who used to have "respect the n00b for one day he will pwn you" as his forum sig, silly statement I know, but I guess it means everyone has to start somewhere, and if those new to the game get put off playing it then sooner or later it will run out of steam and its community will disintegrate just like so many other gaming communities before it.

Quote from ajp71 :

Only been on LFS a few times since Christmas, been on a couple of great servers in the GTR/XFR, getting good advice which helps the learning process seeing as I have very little experience in either of them. Having said that the rest of the servers have been full of wreckers.

As regards to the horn, it really, really pisses some people off, if people hold you up because you start using the horn and loads of 'BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG JUMP OVER THE ARMCO I'M WITHIN HALF A MILE OF YOUR CAR' thats fair enough.

I will never let someone through in the middle of the BL chicane or the AS historic chicane, even if I've just mid-raced joined and they've caught me at a bad moment when I'm still bedding the car in, they're just going to have to wait, no point in sending SPAM, which affects everyone on the server, or bashing your horn, and if someone bashes me out the way then I will get very pissed off, more so seeing as it wasn't for position and they'd have been let through when I felt it was safe.

Enough ranting for now but remember:

Under a blue flag the faster car makes a pass, the lapped car doesn't defend, but equally doesn't have to jump off the track.

The other thing that really annoys me is yellow flags, under a yellow flag you do not pass. I've seen plenty of fast racers crash out under yellows, and there's nothing more annoying than when you and the car ahead of you slow down for a yellow when there are clearly cars all over the place ahead of you and some twat powers past, overtaking three cars before piling into a stationary car, that kind of wreckless driving is on the same level as deleberate wrecking IMO.

The only point I have to argue to you about is where you say "even if I've just mid-raced joined ". If you just joined or pit out of the race, then you should do what is needed to get out of the way of those still racing and not interupt them at all. Other than that, your opinion relfects mine in the lead car must pass the blue flag car and not the blue flag quit racing because someone faster is coming like many expect.

Quote from mrodgers :

The only point I have to argue to you about is where you say "even if I've just mid-raced joined ". If you just joined or pit out of the race, then you should do what is needed to get out of the way of those still racing and not interupt them at all.

The BL chicane wasn't a good place to use as an example because you can look and stop easilly at the BL pit exit and shouldn't ever have a car behind you when you leave the pits.

What I was meaning was for example at Aston Historic up the fast uphill left -right chicane when your on your first lap out of the pits, you can't take it full speed on cold tires (if you can take it on cold tires as fast as you can normally your not driving the car hard enough) if I am going through there with a fast approaching car in my mirrors I will not drive into the wall so he doesn't hit me, in this example the car behind would have seen the slow car before he commited himself to the corner and there is no way of making a safe pass so he has to back off no two ways about it.

My point is that some mid-join drivers are wrongly acused of dangerous driving just bacause some noob takes them out because he can't be bothered to slow down.

As ajp71 suggested, join the CRC. The server is public at the moment but the racing there is kept to a very high standard and CRC members are eligible to enter special events and leagues run by the CRC.

Pop on over to cleanracersclub.org and apply.