Quote from Boris Lozac :

Geez, was that with a default set? Can't imagine having 6000 laps on a combo and still be 2, 3 seconds average off the WR?

Maybe I'm just too bad, no wait, actually I'm a quite theoretical person and very good incalculations, but for that, I need rules (action-reaction) and/ or numbers, and that's what I'm missing in current documentations, in guessing stuff I'm not very good and without very well knowledge you can argue for a change to come up with different reactions when some knowledge is missing.

But now I'm 4-5 seconds behind and for that amount of work I put in the result is just frustration.

Quote from Lhunathwen :

But now I'm 4-5 seconds behind and for that amount of work I put in the result is just frustration.

Damn, you must be doing something really wrong, listen to my advice and watch a WR and see how is he braking, accelerating, i think with just watching it a couple of times you can shave at least one second off..

Quote from Rooble :

I can see what you're saying with this because not everyone has the time patience or knowledge to create setups, but again I think if you spent about 30 minutes playing with a setup or trying to create a setup you would find that it really is very easy, and most setups don't require a full rework for different tracks.

80% of the time I take an existing reliable setup that suits my driving style (which I've either tweaked before, or has been given to me by another driver) and just go ahead and make fine adjustments according to what track it is I'm driving. With this method of creating/adjusting setups you give yourself the opportunity to either only make small adjustments (camber/tyre pressures/down force) or go all out and completely rework (camber/tyre pressures/down force/anti-roll/spring rates/bound rates/etc..etc..) it so its specifically created for that particular track.


Alternatively you could go to a setup site www.setupgrid.net and just download a setup for that particular track you're wanting to race on, However I think you'd get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of creating your own setup, and then having people ask for it because they think its making you fast.

Even when you read through the physics you still have not experience in racing and setting combination and what can turn out how in which combination.

Those are all long time learning factors and those should be documented, too!

For example the claw clutch, the description is very theoretical and hard to understand, I even searched through the net to find better explanations, but I found nowhere else a clutch description based and percentage values so it is useless!
And only roughly knowing how such an important part works is just not enough for a professional game in my opinion!

Or the steering settings, for 50% of the values I have no idea what effect actually can be achieved with a change.

In spring changes I got quite well so far, but finetuning takes forever since you always got to re-tweak when you are faster.
Tires get hotter, you loose grip, you have to optimize tires to not get so hot while keeping the grip.
When you've done so you can drive fast all the time, you get better, tire overheat again, everything starts from the beginning.

So I still think a game as complex as LFS needs to have far better documentation.

I agree with Boris, you must be doing something very wrong. Are you actually driving the cars, you know, just by feel? Without thinking about it? The fastest laps happen when you're "in the zone", meaning it's totally your unconscious doing the driving with no active thoughts about brake points or similar whatsoever.

Over 6000 laps is a MASSIVE amount and the changes on Blackwood aren't that dramatic. You should be way better than 4-5 secs off WR. Heck I just did my first ever 4 laps on FOX/BL1 since patch Y (LFSW says I have 293 laps done on it, but they were all done a long time ago), and I managed to get a shitty 1:10.72 with the RACE_S setup and a not properly mounted wheel, and that time is already less than three secs off the WR. Okay, that doesn't help you in the slightest, but seriously, you must be doing something fundamentally wrong. I'd suggest you to practice more, but maybe you actually need to focus on the way you drive

You also seem to be overly obsessed about setups, whereas their relevance to race speed isn't that high. Sure, the setup needs to roughly fit the track, but the fine tuning of exact values is for when you get into the sub one-second-off-WR range. I usually just take a setup from the setupfield (preferably the ones that come without a locked diff), do some blind tweaks and fixes to it without even testing it beforehand and most of the time it's perfectly fine for racing right off the bat. Completely developing a own set is just too much effort for the amount of racing I do these days.

Though granted, it all also depends on how gifted you are. The people you see doing WRs left and right don't necessarily practice months on that track, on the contrary, I'm pretty sure most are up to asskicking-pace within a few laps on a combo they've never driven before. Guess some people just have a knack for "interfacing" with computer sims or games in general

You seem to think there are somewhat golden rules in making a setup... There aren't. Making setups is ALWAYS about shifting the balance between two extremes to fit YOUR driving, which means you YOURSELF are the key to it all, not the other way round...

If you want to learn, you can gather much knowledge just by reading some technical threads on here, keeping an eye on the advice given in the setup-forum, looking at setups in VHPA and reading Bob's advanced setup-guide (update due sometime in the future)... I haven't seen you asking questions about the things you so eagerly want to know, why? What holds you back?

Quote from AndroidXP :

I agree with Boris, you must be doing something very wrong. Are you actually driving the cars, you know, just by feel? Without thinking about it? The fastest laps happen when you're "in the zone", meaning it's totally your unconscious doing the driving with no active thoughts about brake points or similar whatsoever.

Over 6000 laps is a MASSIVE amount and the changes on Blackwood aren't that dramatic. You should be way better than 4-5 secs off WR. Heck I just did my first ever 4 laps on FOX/BL1 since patch Y (LFSW says I have 293 laps done on it, but they were all done a long time ago), and I managed to get a shitty 1:10.72 with the RACE_S setup and a not properly mounted wheel, and that time is already less than three secs off the WR. Okay, that doesn't help you in the slightest, but seriously, you must be doing something fundamentally wrong. I'd suggest you to practice more, but maybe you actually need to focus on the way you drive

You also seem to be overly obsessed about setups, whereas their relevance to race speed isn't that high. Sure, the setup needs to roughly fit the track, but the fine tuning of exact values is for when you get into the sub one-second-off-WR range. I usually just take a setup from the setupfield (preferably the ones that come without a locked diff), do some blind tweaks and fixes to it without even testing it beforehand and most of the time it's perfectly fine for racing right off the bat. Completely developing a own set is just too much effort for the amount of racing I do these days.

Though granted, it all also depends on how gifted you are. The people you see doing WRs left and right don't necessarily practice months on that track, on the contrary, I'm pretty sure most are up to asskicking-pace within a few laps on a combo they've never driven before. Guess some people just have a knack for "interfacing" with computer sims or games in general

Of course I lack in practise on the new BL course but I got a 1:09.xx but average laps are in 1:10 to 1:11, but I got quite fixed break points (and late => high break force; no, tires don't stop rolling =P ) but when comparing with other racers I lack in corner speed even while having more wing than the fast racers, thus there must be other reasons to improve turn speed.

Maybe better PC with more FPS or better wheel which is more precise if everything else should be ok.


There are so many factors and I can't find the reason, really complex stuff! O_O

Quote from bbman :

You seem to think there are somewhat golden rules in making a setup... There aren't. Making setups is ALWAYS about shifting the balance between two extremes to fit YOUR driving, which means you YOURSELF are the key to it all, not the other way round...

If you want to learn, you can gather much knowledge just by reading some technical threads on here, keeping an eye on the advice given in the setup-forum, looking at setups in VHPA and reading Bob's advanced setup-guide (update due sometime in the future)... I haven't seen you asking questions about the things you so eagerly want to know, why? What holds you back?

I did read through both manuals, as well as through other manuals and I think I got some experience since (I'd say) I can tweak setups
but it takes a long time for me, I always feel where the balance is not right, but sometimes I don't know how I can fix it, or if fixed it can have a negative result on the rest of the track (=> much testing).

However I did aks qestions here, but not much since the answers were no real help.

But as you said there is experience stuff around here, why not putting it into a doku of some kind?

I already got some stuff like "I'm loosing my heck while accelerating: soultion 1; solution 2; solution 3" and so on, but I did not find a setup guide that cares about steering or clutch settings for example.

Sure there is a lot of helpful stuff out there, but everything is scattered around the net and most of the stuff is incomplete.
Or it is in english, well my english is not too bad, but I do not know all those technical words since I installed the german version of course.

Quote from Lhunathwen :

got quite fixed break points (and late => high brake force; no, tires don't stop rolling =P ) but when comparing with other racers I lack in corner speed even while having more wing than the fast racers, thus there must be other reasons to improve turn speed.

Ohh, slow in - fast out is the solution then.

What you've said make it very clear that you're botching your exit speeds (and with that the speed over the whole following straight) by braking too late too hard. Late braking is necessary for defending your position, but to be fast over a whole lap it's important to get high corner exit speeds, which are much easier to achieve if you have a smooth, relaxed braking that allows you to nail the apex just right. Ideally you should already be on the throttle before the apex. Of course, the best would be perfect hard late-braking with a perfect apex and perfect exit speed, but chances are you are not perfect and exit is SO MUCH MORE important than the tiny bit of time you can gain on corner entry.

Also by not braking so hard and late you should automatically have smoother transitions and weight shifts, which itself can improve grip, speed and tyre life, too.

I'm a complete hack at setups, but here's what I do...

Try setups from different "authors", either from Inferno or the old standby begging fast guys for their sets. Once you try 5 or 6, see what you like and use that for a base setup in that car for other tracks. Adjust final drive and left/right handedness (camber and tire pressure) and you're good to go!

Once you have a setup you like, you can tinker with things and see what happens.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Ohh, slow in - fast out is the solution then.

What you've said....

Quite interesting point, I like high stability to be able to give throttle within the turn but I haven't thought about the breaking part itself (besides getting slow enough, fast enough "Who breaks later is longer fast" *lol* ), I should give it a try, thanks.

Personally I have played LFS nearly every day for 2+ years now but I have found my interest dropping since xmas.

Most of it is due to limited new content being released (cars\tracks). I have raced on the existing tracks thousands of times and driven all the cars. I seem to be approaching my limit on how long I can race on these combos.

In addition I'm not a huge fan of the new patch. Tyre heating is way off what it should be in my opinion and the slow gear change on the FZR has sucked all the fun out of my favourite car. I don't understand why gear change timing was slowed to help balance the FZR against the rest of the GTR's. Doesn't make sense to me, there are other, better ways of achieving balance.

Quote from SabersKunk :

...

In addition I'm not a huge fan of the new patch. Tyre heating is way off what it should be in my opinion and the slow gear change on the FZR has sucked all the fun out of my favourite car. I don't understand why gear change timing was slowed to help balance the FZR against the rest of the GTR's. Doesn't make sense to me, there are other, better ways of achieving balance.

I don't agree with you. Before patch Y you could use the softest tyre compound in a race on any car that's equipped with slicks. R2 and R1 tyres are quali tyres and not for race use. I like FZR even better than before because the gearbox, it's more interesting to drive (if you have the right equipment).

Well there is one issue IMO with the tire heat. When you enter a corner the instant temperatures on the contact surface are much higher than whats recorded in LFS. LFS is more taking a mass temperature, I guess you could say, and that difference will cause acceleration (either laterally or longitudinally) to behave differently, how much it makes a difference I don't know.

Personally I like the slower FZR shift =)

Quote from _--NZ--_[HUN] :

I like FZR even better than before because the gearbox, it's more interesting to drive (if you have the right equipment).

Kinda odd that it uses H-shifter though.

Quote from Mattesa :

Kinda odd that it uses H-shifter though.

Not really. There are GTR spec series that still use H boxes so it is valid. Also it was given H as a means to balance the cars

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Well there is one issue IMO with the tire heat. When you enter a corner the instant temperatures on the contact surface are much higher than whats recorded in LFS. LFS is more taking a mass temperature, I guess you could say, and that difference will cause acceleration (either laterally or longitudinally) to behave differently, how much it makes a difference I don't know.

Personally I like the slower FZR shift =)

You should try Ctrl + Shift while in F9-display some time...

I think altough physics should be improved they are better than any other game so far and now what is, in my opinion, lacking is graphics and sounds because when talking about simulation why do ppl assume physics only?
isnt simulating what we see and hear a just as valid simulation?

Quote from bbman :

You should try Ctrl + Shift while in F9-display some time...

Yep and they don't go up enough. Instant contact temps are supposed to be way above mass temps (someone correct me but IIRC they should be over 120c)

What more do you want for sounds? LFS IMO has one of the best sound engines around. Hit SHift+A while in a car and you can see what I mean. No smelly sampled files for LFS, everything is synthed. Graphics are not that bad, just not oversaturated like many other games which makes them look more brilliant than they actually are. There are things that could be better with the graphics but LFS is still DX8?

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

LFS IMO has one of the best sound engines around. Hit SHift+A while in a car and you can see what I mean. No smelly sampled files for LFS, everything is synthed.

Best sound engines around? No, not really . The only positive thing I can think of the current system is that it could model engine damage and alter the sound accordingly. But it doesn't even do that.

I've been playing rfactor and GPL a lot recently and those sample-based (GPL uses just one sound file per car!) provide enough information about the what the engine is doing.

And LFS does use sampled file for the engine, drivetrain, horn etc. The sound file is just shorter than in most games .

And if you remember the first official V patch sounds, they were just so awful that people were stil using the U30 test patch. The reason why LFS sounds a bit better than it did then is only because of our beloved kidcodea leaked the information about it.

The only good thing about the current sound system is imho the potential it has .

Quote from Hyperactive :

And LFS does use sampled file for the engine, drivetrain, horn etc. The sound file is just shorter than in most games .

From what I gather the engine sound synthesis is pretty much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable

I wish it would use the same approach for the drivetrain as currently getting a clean looping-yet-interesting sample done in the size limits it has is very hard.

In my brief experience of rfactor, the sound quality (much like anything else) varies dramatically from mod to mod but they all have the common trait that the loops are clearly audible (some mods more so than others) and they sound just the same at given RPM regardless of engine-load* - of course all that is not just rfactor, but any sample-based implementation.

* in LFS I am under the impression that it doesn't - however, I just might be wrong - I never actually took time to do any measurements

Quote from xaotik :

From what I gather the engine sound synthesis is pretty much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable

I wish it would use the same approach for the drivetrain as currently getting a clean looping-yet-interesting sample done in the size limits it has is very hard.

In my brief experience of rfactor, the sound quality (much like anything else) varies dramatically from mod to mod but they all have the common trait that the loops are clearly audible (some mods more so than others) and they sound just the same at given RPM regardless of engine-load* - of course all that is not just rfactor, but any sample-based implementation.

* in LFS I am under the impression that it doesn't - however, I just might be wrong - I never actually took time to do any measurements

No engine sounds in LFS are synthed. It takes a short sound sample as a building block and changes the wave to reflect the sound wanted for a given.

The rest of the sounds are sampled, but other than the drivetrain whirr it's not as critical as the engine sounds so that you don't get the problem like in other games that use pure samples where the sound itself doesn't alter with engine load, just the volume which is very fake indeed. It's almost like music sometimes with my 7.1 surround while playing LFS, especially when you get two cars running beside each other, makes me want to hop into my car hehe.

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

No engine sounds in LFS are synthed. It takes a short sound sample as a building block and changes the wave to reflect the sound wanted for a given.

Excellent, you just described synthesis - you take a "building block" as you say and "change it" with the purpose of generating a new sound. In LFS's case instead of using a classic oscillator generated "building block" (lsine, saw, triangle, square, etc) it uses a sampled one. That's the basis of two forms of synthesis: wavetable and sample-based.

I've lost interest in LFS too! Forza 2 for me and I'm even in a team!

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Yep and they don't go up enough. Instant contact temps are supposed to be way above mass temps (someone correct me but IIRC they should be over 120c)

Do you have any references you can link to about surface temps of tyres, because I'd sure be interested

Quote from xaotik :

Excellent, you just described synthesis - you take a "building block" as you say and change it. In LFS's case instead of using a classic oscillator generated "building block" it uses a sampled one. That's the basis of two forms of synthesis: wavetable and sample-based.

=) Yeah, LFS uses wavetable for synth =)

How exactly does sample based work? Do they have a huge sound database matrix that pulls a sound for a given rev and throttle input?

I know LFS takes a basic sound sample makes the wave, changes the amplitude and frequency depending on throttle and rev so instead of having steps in the sounds everything flows as one sine wave.

Quote from Glenn67 :

Do you have any references you can link to about surface temps of tyres, because I'd sure be interested

I'll have to do some searching, once i finish my homework... I think I am going to have to ban myself from teh internet to get my reading done, it's taking forever...