Well i would like to support vykos and others but we haven’t tested that much to support our words. I just would like to say that numbers and calculations are just pure mistake it helps yes but its different from the real thing. Don’t forget that both cars have advantages and disadvantages taking one advantage from the FZR isn’t faire in my personal opinion and this isn´t a 2 hours race
Sure, but the XRR is still not faster than the FZR+20kg. To counter that, the XRR does a few laps more per stint than the FZR.
So what is the advantage we are taking away from the FZR? And why would we need to decrease the weight, let alone remove all of it, to only make the laptime gap even larger?
Maybe the gap could be to short? As i said in my previous post i don’t have any argument nor information about this problem, just tried to tell you that both cars can´t have the same speed...
Keep in mind we have seen the fastest possible times with the XRR currently, since Bawbag and Jonesy are probably the only ones capable of showing us what its potential is. We still have yet to see even the fastest times done by SK, #low (ID), etc. What's to say they can't get a faster time, or even adjust their setup for added weight (eg. ballast location).
Aston GP is a big track, and laptimes can vary so much because getting a good lap in requires all corners/sectors are perfect. But this balancing isn't just for Aston GP. Think about BLGP & KYN.
Aston GP is a big track, and laptimes can vary so much because getting a good lap in requires all corners/sectors are perfect. But this balancing isn't just for Aston GP. Think about BLGP & KYN.
I'll do a testing session with the FZR @ around 10. Anyone up for some driving/setup discussions etc? Gonna be on "F1RST Racing" then 
Pass for this server is the MoE password.
Thanks all for joining the test session: drivers from n!, F1RST, SK, my3id, #low and even a few LFS GT teams. In particular we would like to thank Chris and Clio for finishing their stints.
In this test session we tested two settings:
1. results 20kg
2. results 10kg
For Saturday we would like to ask to get the data of a FZR+15kg stint.
We're close to the final decision, just a little bit more input!
In this test session we tested two settings:
1. results 20kg
2. results 10kg
For Saturday we would like to ask to get the data of a FZR+15kg stint.
We're close to the final decision, just a little bit more input!
well, tomorrow is 1st official quali (in 42 hours), so looks like we need that final decidion :O
Currently it heavily favours the FXR drivers, they now have a car with near identical performance but cannot get stuck, whereas the XRR drivers are marginally quicker (0.2s pl) and can get stuck.
As for your editted comments, pretty much correct, a whole pit stop is about 45 sec in total depending on the class, however theres 3 faults with your arguement.
1) Theres no gravel at the S/F line, the first location is about 10sec into the lap, you'd be at about 15sec before you'd consider a shift+s, which is 15+30sec, making it longer than a scheduled stop.
2) You dont shift+p to the garage at the S/F line doing 135mph as you go, 35/45sec includes time in, stop, out, and whats lost over a normal flying lap, a +30sec penalty doesnt include getting up to speed.
3) Not only do you lose what you've done, you've got to get back there again. If your 30sec into the track and crash, then you've lost 30sec getting there, then about 40sec getting back to the exact same location.
Best case scenario (the one you list as a 'possible situation')
an XRR gets stuck at T1, shift+p's and loses 15sec messing the lap up, 30sec in penalty, and then about 25sec getting upto speed and back to T1 where you were at the time.
Total time lost, 55sec, BEST case scenario.
Average scenario
an XRR gets stuck at the fast left,right after the long 2nd sector backstraight, it took 1m20 to get there, meaning 1m30 to get back there, and 30sec penalty on top.
Total time lost, 2min.
Worst case scenario
get stuck at the 2nd split, took 2min getting there, so it takes 2:10 getting back there, +30sec penalty.
Total time lost, 2min 40sec.
And your saying +30sec isnt fair?? Saying +1lap (+2m20 more), thats what isnt fair!
Get real...
You want to get an advantage for things that MAYBE COULD happen, for me that's like spyker f1 (or whatever they call themselfs now) is asking to have less weight in their car to because their car is more likely to get a mechanical failure.
You choosed that car before the season started and should have been aware of all advantaged / disadvantages that car has. But now, as for the first time of the season the cars have equal speed (with pitting) you begin to search things that give you your small advantage back.
I have seen noone from the FXR teams complaining that the FXR was way over 1 second slower per lap on Westhill (guess thats a bit a fault on admin for not noticing before and FXR drivers side for not saying / providing data to show that).
Cars can't be balanced on things that maybe could happen, end of story.
The 0.2 seconds you refer to... that's even after the first round of pitstops... (meaning both cars had their pitstops, or that there has been a driver would did a faster stint on XRR than a Mercury one... http://score.com.sapo.pt/LFSStats/Fusion_MoEtest.html ).
So basicly you gain 0.2 seconds per lap (with pitstops), your fastest lap is 0.5s faster (0.8s for the SpeedCore guy)...
What more do you want?
You want to get an advantage for things that MAYBE COULD happen, for me that's like spyker f1 (or whatever they call themselfs now) is asking to have less weight in their car to because their car is more likely to get a mechanical failure.
You choosed that car before the season started and should have been aware of all advantaged / disadvantages that car has. But now, as for the first time of the season the cars have equal speed (with pitting) you begin to search things that give you your small advantage back.
I have seen noone from the FXR teams complaining that the FXR was way over 1 second slower per lap on Westhill (guess thats a bit a fault on admin for not noticing before and FXR drivers side for not saying / providing data to show that).
Cars can't be balanced on things that maybe could happen, end of story.
The 0.2 seconds you refer to... that's even after the first round of pitstops... (meaning both cars had their pitstops, or that there has been a driver would did a faster stint on XRR than a Mercury one... http://score.com.sapo.pt/LFSStats/Fusion_MoEtest.html ).
So basicly you gain 0.2 seconds per lap (with pitstops), your fastest lap is 0.5s faster (0.8s for the SpeedCore guy)...
What more do you want?
that looks like an original da_hoe paint but not like a decisionhelp for justifying extra weight.
already any decision?
What a nice constructive da_hoe reply. If you've taken the time to read things, you'd be wondering yourself why you'd be making such a comment.
@Jay: at this moment, we're in our final stages of the discussion. Personally I think based on all the information we've obtained, we've got enough indications to make a fair decision.
Finally, testresults with 15kg
i don't get it at all
but ok it's your decision ...
both cars have the same pace on _one_ stint now?
but ok it's your decision ...
both cars have the same pace on _one_ stint now?
Sorry, I might sound harsh, but: The rules and the balancing shouldnt be the job of the league members.
I'd go for the official weights, and would have given every team the chance to choose a new car. At least in GT1, as GT2 is a different story, due to the fact how the balast and changes were made.
Even doing teststints of 1 hour is by far not enough, as only a number of races on different tracks over 6hours and more will give an idea about the balance.
So: The best way would have been, to go with no weights for the rest of the season, and then see how it went. As the races in the MoE are actually the best balancing info you could get. Stuff with clutches etc. come into here, as the clutch easily overheats in driverchanges @ FZR teams etc. etc.
So what you are doing by adding some weight, based on one hour stints, is actually totally useless. Sorry, but the upcoming race is 24 hours, not 1, and the minimum length in the rest of the season is 6... With all that pseudo balancing right now, you are going to spoil more, than you are trying to prevent.
Nevertheless, we will for sure take part, and take what will be decided as given.
Sorry for bothering but quali should start in less than 2 hours and we still don't know final decision... I would like to make quali setup to right ballast 
Are you serious, you still dont get it??
1) HOW is it an advantage??
*IF* we stuck in gravel, its *DISADVANTAGE* is minimised.
*IF* we dont get stuck, then its equal thanks to the balancing.
This 'advantage' still means we significantly loses out, so how the hell is it gaining something??
If nobody gets stuck, then theres no advantage, all that im suggesting (and DWB has agreed on) is that both cars are near identical, however *IF* someone does get stuck, then its *NOT* identical, and something needs to be done to fix that so that car isnt penalised as heavily.
2) Yes, we knew this when we picked that car, and you knew your car was sh*t slow, so maybe we should all go back to 25% and you should deal with it!?? How about that, you wanted the FXR which was clearly slower, we wanted the harder to drive, but faster XRR, now its the harder to drive, just as quick XRR. When they werent even in speed, the fact that you could fly through gravel just seemed insignificant, but now the 2 cars are near identical, yours is a peice of p*ss to drive, AND cant get stuck in gravel no matter how hard you try, you have a clear advantage IF you get stuck in gravel.
3) 'What more do you want'
I'll tell you what i want, equality!! Correct me if im wrong:
XRR v FXR
Speed - near identical
Ease to drive - Easily favours FXR
Fuel consumption - near identical, minor adv to XRR (0.2%)
Stint length - slightly favours FXR (4-5 laps)
Ability to drive through gravel and not get stuck - Huge advantage to FXR
Are there any other differences between the 2 cars?
So lets asses that, the FXR is just as quick, real easy to drive, doesnt get stuck, goes a notable distrance further in stints, but consumes maybe 0.2% more fuel requiring < 8% more fuel putting in.
Yet again a T7R member nails the debate, what more do XRR drivers want
Someone from T7R, rather than making up crap, tell me how that is now balanced?? We've fixed issues that they've had since the beginning in the interest of closer results & closer racing, why cant it be done for us?? If we get taken out at T1 in the opening lap or any lap for that matter, were -1 lap, is that in the interest of close racing?? About as much as the FXR being >1sec slower!
4) Its an unfair advantage one car has over the other, just like one car being stupidly slow, the other being unfairly quick. If you dont want fair balancing, stick that 2% back on and we'll call it even. Otherwise, you've got the same speed as us, but no downside to driving that car, only positives, whereas ours is harder to drive, could get stuck (costing 3-5min a time) and goes the same speed.
If you cant comment or think without bias, then dont bother commenting at all. I pushed for equal speeds, and you've got that now, you guys now decide you've got an advantage and would rather play thicko's than acknowledge its unfair now.
While I do agree that it would be nice if there were a fair way to legislate away the likelihood of the XRR losing time due to being buried in gravel, I don't see a clean way of doing it. The fact is that the XRR teams chose the XRR knowing that it was a possibility, and chose it because they a) enjoy driving it more and/or b) felt it was faster. Either way, beaching was one of the variables in play when cars were initially selected, and it's a bit off to ask for it to be fixed mid-season.
It's unfortunate, but I'm certainly not going to pursue a "fix" for it, either as an admin or a XRR driver.
It's unfortunate, but I'm certainly not going to pursue a "fix" for it, either as an admin or a XRR driver.
If nothing helps start insulting other people.... Really some great attitude some people have.
I'm not going to discuss it with you anymore, just no sense in talking to you. Admins have made their final decision, that's it for me.
So instead of politely posting this a few days ago when you finally decided to post your opinion, you wait untill the final weight has been given just to tell the admins there wrong?
On the switching car front, we were hoping to do so as it was said in the rules but when we tried to do so we were told that because the cars can be balanced we must stick with it.
I'm quite glad that it was lowered from 20kg as 15kg has now been proven to be faster overall and there really can't be any whining, if there is then atleast it will be something to lol at.
What attitude is that? intentionally denying you've got a huge advantage and always ignoring the questions put to you on your claims because that way you know you've got an unfair advantage?
Fine, 'insults' removed, but its typical that you intentionally deny and come up with BS analogies to ignore the fact that the cars arent equally balanced anymore, they're as unbalanced as they were beforehand except now they're in your favour you've decided to play the ignorance card and pretend its not.
The fact that DWB acknowledges its wrong only confirms *again* what im saying. If they're saying it cant be fixed fairly, then thats their decision to make although i'd completely disagree with it as the 3 examples given yesterday show even with a 30sec penalty instead of -1 lap its still a harsh penalty for something fundamentally wrong with the car, which your car doesnt suffer from.
The 'its the car you picked, deal with it' analogy isnt fair either, all the teams picked the cars they picked based on + and - points, the FXR was considerably slower, but easier to drive, now its just as quick, and considerably easier to drive. The XRR is... unchanged. Their weakness is gone, ours is still there, and all in the name of balancing
My very last words on this:
http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=46940&d=1199945298
Average Lap: T7R|Three Jump 2:52.65
Best possible lap: 2:49.83
http://score.com.sapo.pt/LFSStats/Fusion_MoEtest.html
Average Lap: SpeedCore.Rocabiliz 2:51.58
Best possible lap: 2:48.61
http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=46940&d=1199945298
Average Lap: T7R|Three Jump 2:52.65
Best possible lap: 2:49.83
http://score.com.sapo.pt/LFSStats/Fusion_MoEtest.html
Average Lap: SpeedCore.Rocabiliz 2:51.58
Best possible lap: 2:48.61
My reply to your very last words, which still dont answer any of the points made as per usual.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=26956
MoE round 4: 24h of Aston
I've seen SparkyDave do faster than that about 5 days ago on full race fuel on lap 13, and about .21 on lap 19, your not even the fastest driver in your team, so why is your lap worthy as a comparison of what its capable of doing??
Bawbag has done a 2:47.9, why dont you compare yourself to him while your at it, afterall thats yet another perfectly fair comparison isnt it?
As i keep saying, you bring up something that isnt even accurate or relevent and ignore the point im making, isnt the first time, and surely wont be the last. At least i have the decency to answer points you make rather than pretend they dont exist and make some bizarre comparison to distract from the original point.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=26956
MoE round 4: 24h of Aston
I've seen SparkyDave do faster than that about 5 days ago on full race fuel on lap 13, and about .21 on lap 19, your not even the fastest driver in your team, so why is your lap worthy as a comparison of what its capable of doing??
Bawbag has done a 2:47.9, why dont you compare yourself to him while your at it, afterall thats yet another perfectly fair comparison isnt it?
As i keep saying, you bring up something that isnt even accurate or relevent and ignore the point im making, isnt the first time, and surely wont be the last. At least i have the decency to answer points you make rather than pretend they dont exist and make some bizarre comparison to distract from the original point.
For some reason I can't stay away from that discussion... maybe your writing is too attractive to me... I'm sure you'll animate me to post again... 
At no point I was ignoring your point (I'm refering to the gravel trap stuff), what I said was that it's "bullshit" (well I didn't exactly say that
) to balance the cars on the possibility of getting stuck in the gravel.
I don't deny that Dave is faster than me, but I doubt that it's so much that it would close the 1 second gap in my comparision above.
Plus that, he was even using another setup than me (which turned out to be better, we had to modify the old one to make it fit to the new restrictions)
LFS offers 3 different cars for this class, so we all gonna use the same car again... At no point did I deny that the FXR is easier to drive. The FXR is still slower (either on average lap or fastest lap, or did you bring anything else up against that? I mean FACTs?)
Yeah, what do other people know compared to you...
----------------------------------------
I'm not saying that it is easy to find a perfect balance (which imho doesn't even exist), but at some point a decision has to be made (which was done by the admins earlier) and we all have to live with it. I'm always up for a discussion and maybe it would better to have that with the admins on an irc channel (it would be definatly faster). But for me you stepped to far with insulting other people, and it's not the first time you did this.
Good night
At no point I was ignoring your point (I'm refering to the gravel trap stuff), what I said was that it's "bullshit" (well I didn't exactly say that
) to balance the cars on the possibility of getting stuck in the gravel. I don't deny that Dave is faster than me, but I doubt that it's so much that it would close the 1 second gap in my comparision above.
Plus that, he was even using another setup than me (which turned out to be better, we had to modify the old one to make it fit to the new restrictions)
LFS offers 3 different cars for this class, so we all gonna use the same car again... At no point did I deny that the FXR is easier to drive. The FXR is still slower (either on average lap or fastest lap, or did you bring anything else up against that? I mean FACTs?)
Yeah, what do other people know compared to you...
----------------------------------------
I'm not saying that it is easy to find a perfect balance (which imho doesn't even exist), but at some point a decision has to be made (which was done by the admins earlier) and we all have to live with it. I'm always up for a discussion and maybe it would better to have that with the admins on an irc channel (it would be definatly faster). But for me you stepped to far with insulting other people, and it's not the first time you did this.
Good night
For those that cant be bothered reading, dont, and i dont care to know, nor does anyone else. Those that do read, have a stiff drink handy 
To quickly answer your point...
Dave has gone at least 0.5sec faster, and while carrying race fuel. While you've gone 0.5s slower on qualifying fuel and qual setup.
Those are FACTS. You appear to be talking about 1-2 lap qualifying runs and suggesting theres an injustice going on with something, i havent quite seen a point to what your highlighting, im pretty sure your not bragging. Its a 24 hour race and will be based on 490-500 laps, and in that time i give you my assurances, we wont be doing 1-2 flying laps and then pitting and going at it all over again. So as usual, i dont see what the point is of highlighting 1 lap qual times brings to a discussion about Shift+P penalties. Qualifying means jack, at South City we started 4th i think, the lights went green at the pit entrance and we were leading by a good car length before we'd even got to the start finish line. It means very very little in terms of race pace, or in terms of its importance in a 1hr race let alone 24hrs.
Also, i never said or implied my opinion is worth more than anyone elses, however its my opinion, and im entitled to my own, and my opinion partly differed from DWB's, no more, no less.
regarding the 'bullshit' unbalancing debate...
Im not saying the cars need the balancing re-assessing, heres an overview of the 2 cars as they are now, im pretty sure it includes most things.
The cars produce similar laptimes.
They use the same gearbox.
They use the same engine.
They have a similar fuel usage.
The FXR is easier to drive cleanly.
The XRR is harder to drive cleanly.
The top speeds are almost identical (FXR actually 1mph faster)
The FXR is slightly better on acceleration (AWD)
The FXR uses R3s and goes 4-5 laps further because of it.
The XRR uses R2s and does 4-5 less laps.
The FXR drives out if stuck in gravel, loses 10-15sec.
The XRR gets stuck in gravel, loses time spent on current lap, has to start at S/F pitlane, and gets -1 lap penalty.
Most things are balanced nicely, however you cannot deny that there is no other issue out there which you could use to say the XRR has an major or minor advantage because of X & Y. However the biggest disadvantage the XRR has is that if it gets stuck in gravel, it cant drive out, while the FXR can. Because of that, it means if you make a mistake it goes punished by about 10-15sec while you get back on track. The XRR loses a lap and whatever its done on that lap. How can the 2 cars be considered equal while thats considerable problem for 1/2 the GT2 cars.
All i've suggested is that rather than it being -1lap it should be changed to +30sec because even that will cost an XRR anywhere between 50sec and 3min, while the FXR has no issue at all. If nobody gets stuck, nobody 'wins' nobody 'loses', however if someone does get stuck while you could carry on, the rest are effectively out of the race. Is that 'in the best interest of close racing'??
+30sec would have served as a big penalty on top of losing time getting to wherever you crashed. -1lap is a race ruiner, and in a weeks time when you look at the results and see those -1lap's in there, remember they'll be there because because despite the cars being even on the track, off the track they're not even close.
How many places will be 'won' because of this disadvantage? places taken because your previous weakness (lack of speed) is now fixed, while ours is left in there (lose laps if stuck). We're balancing 1 way, not the other, and i feel they're now vulnerable to being 'unbalanced' in an entirely different way.
Its not an issue which applies to both teams like a disconnection, everyone runs that risk. Its an issue which affects 1 car, and its a MoE issued punishment that does the real damage. Its in the interest of fair & close racing, nobody gains anything from it, it stops them losing something, the right to a fair and even race.
If you look at it from a clear headed perspective, teams gaining/losing places because of something 1 car can do that the other car, while everything else is now pretty much equal, how is that fair and entertaining racing?? Its removing a disadvantage, and in no way creates an advantage, only a slightly more even playing field IF the worst comes to the worst. if it doesnt, play on, but if it does, should it be a race ruiner?
If they dont feel its an issue, then so be it, IMO it is an issue, and im entitled to that as much as anyone else is entitled to theres. However everything ive heard from yourself (some T7R members) convinces me either your well aware of this disadvantage and are quite happy to gain places 'undeservedly' (in my view), or hopefully that you dont see the full picture, and thats why its winding me up when im getting comparisons to disconnections and other odd things all drivers could suffer from equally. This isnt equal, if it was equal, you'd get stuck in gravel too, but its something inherent within the car that creates an 'unevenness'.
If you still disagree with it, so be it, thats as good as i can put it and if that doesnt work then you'll have noted from earlier tone im getting tired of feeling like it needs spelling out. But if you dont understand my view after that, or you understand and still disagree, then going on about it wont get anyone anywhere. Thats my view on the subject for entrants and organisers alike, i hope people understand and see my point, but i dont hold much hope as im well aware most just wont bother reading, but nor will i sumerise my opinions into 2 sentences.
To quickly answer your point...
Dave has gone at least 0.5sec faster, and while carrying race fuel. While you've gone 0.5s slower on qualifying fuel and qual setup.
Those are FACTS. You appear to be talking about 1-2 lap qualifying runs and suggesting theres an injustice going on with something, i havent quite seen a point to what your highlighting, im pretty sure your not bragging. Its a 24 hour race and will be based on 490-500 laps, and in that time i give you my assurances, we wont be doing 1-2 flying laps and then pitting and going at it all over again. So as usual, i dont see what the point is of highlighting 1 lap qual times brings to a discussion about Shift+P penalties. Qualifying means jack, at South City we started 4th i think, the lights went green at the pit entrance and we were leading by a good car length before we'd even got to the start finish line. It means very very little in terms of race pace, or in terms of its importance in a 1hr race let alone 24hrs.
Also, i never said or implied my opinion is worth more than anyone elses, however its my opinion, and im entitled to my own, and my opinion partly differed from DWB's, no more, no less.
regarding the 'bullshit' unbalancing debate...
Im not saying the cars need the balancing re-assessing, heres an overview of the 2 cars as they are now, im pretty sure it includes most things.
The cars produce similar laptimes.
They use the same gearbox.
They use the same engine.
They have a similar fuel usage.
The FXR is easier to drive cleanly.
The XRR is harder to drive cleanly.
The top speeds are almost identical (FXR actually 1mph faster)
The FXR is slightly better on acceleration (AWD)
The FXR uses R3s and goes 4-5 laps further because of it.
The XRR uses R2s and does 4-5 less laps.
The FXR drives out if stuck in gravel, loses 10-15sec.
The XRR gets stuck in gravel, loses time spent on current lap, has to start at S/F pitlane, and gets -1 lap penalty.
Most things are balanced nicely, however you cannot deny that there is no other issue out there which you could use to say the XRR has an major or minor advantage because of X & Y. However the biggest disadvantage the XRR has is that if it gets stuck in gravel, it cant drive out, while the FXR can. Because of that, it means if you make a mistake it goes punished by about 10-15sec while you get back on track. The XRR loses a lap and whatever its done on that lap. How can the 2 cars be considered equal while thats considerable problem for 1/2 the GT2 cars.
All i've suggested is that rather than it being -1lap it should be changed to +30sec because even that will cost an XRR anywhere between 50sec and 3min, while the FXR has no issue at all. If nobody gets stuck, nobody 'wins' nobody 'loses', however if someone does get stuck while you could carry on, the rest are effectively out of the race. Is that 'in the best interest of close racing'??
+30sec would have served as a big penalty on top of losing time getting to wherever you crashed. -1lap is a race ruiner, and in a weeks time when you look at the results and see those -1lap's in there, remember they'll be there because because despite the cars being even on the track, off the track they're not even close.
How many places will be 'won' because of this disadvantage? places taken because your previous weakness (lack of speed) is now fixed, while ours is left in there (lose laps if stuck). We're balancing 1 way, not the other, and i feel they're now vulnerable to being 'unbalanced' in an entirely different way.
Its not an issue which applies to both teams like a disconnection, everyone runs that risk. Its an issue which affects 1 car, and its a MoE issued punishment that does the real damage. Its in the interest of fair & close racing, nobody gains anything from it, it stops them losing something, the right to a fair and even race.
If you look at it from a clear headed perspective, teams gaining/losing places because of something 1 car can do that the other car, while everything else is now pretty much equal, how is that fair and entertaining racing?? Its removing a disadvantage, and in no way creates an advantage, only a slightly more even playing field IF the worst comes to the worst. if it doesnt, play on, but if it does, should it be a race ruiner?
If they dont feel its an issue, then so be it, IMO it is an issue, and im entitled to that as much as anyone else is entitled to theres. However everything ive heard from yourself (some T7R members) convinces me either your well aware of this disadvantage and are quite happy to gain places 'undeservedly' (in my view), or hopefully that you dont see the full picture, and thats why its winding me up when im getting comparisons to disconnections and other odd things all drivers could suffer from equally. This isnt equal, if it was equal, you'd get stuck in gravel too, but its something inherent within the car that creates an 'unevenness'.
If you still disagree with it, so be it, thats as good as i can put it and if that doesnt work then you'll have noted from earlier tone im getting tired of feeling like it needs spelling out. But if you dont understand my view after that, or you understand and still disagree, then going on about it wont get anyone anywhere. Thats my view on the subject for entrants and organisers alike, i hope people understand and see my point, but i dont hold much hope as im well aware most just wont bother reading, but nor will i sumerise my opinions into 2 sentences.
This thread is closed
Test Race II: Improving classes
(146 posts, closed, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG