Based on the first test race and some after testing, we would like to test the following settings:

GT1
XXR: default;
FZR: +20kg.
Each team can send in multiple drivers, however with 2 or more drivers per team, at least 1 driver should race the FZR while the other drives the XRR. This will provide us with more comparable results.

GT2
XRR: 25% restriction;
FXR: 23% restriction.
Each team can send in multiple drivers, however with 2 or more drivers per team, at least 1 driver should drive the XRR while the other drives the FXR. As (again) this will provide us with more comparable results.

At this point it is already clear, as also indicated in several posts on the forums, that in the GT1 class the FXR is way off pace. Given only one team is using the FXR we have decided that the Serbian Racing Team is allowed to change their car, rather than including the FXR in the balance issues and making the balancing issues too complex.

Date of test race II: Wednesday January 9, 2008
Time: 2030 UTC
Race specific info:
- 15min qualify
- 2 hour race
- Standing start
Server: Masters of Endurance
Password: participating teams will know.

22% might be a bit too much, 23% seems to work better on the quick testing we had tonight

Test with it anyways.

As always, we need to know important factors such as tire heat & wear, and especially fuel usage.

Basically just tell us how long your stints last, and what kind of times you can reach in hotlapping and during a race .

Changed to 23% restriction for the FXR based on current info for the GT2 class.

Any chance I could be PMed the password so I can participate?

Quote from Tweaker :

Test with it anyways.

As always, we need to know important factors such as tire heat & wear, and especially fuel usage.

Basically just tell us how long your stints last, and what kind of times you can reach in hotlapping and during a race .

Drove 2 x 25 laps test races with the GT2's tonight;
FXR @ 23% restriction gave 2.8% fuel consumption per lap, over 25 laps. The tyres would last maybe a lap or 3 longer than 25 laps, but were slower after lap 20, overheat wasnt too much of a problem after the 1st few laps in.
The XRR and FXR GT2 cars felt very close tonight and only 1/2 sec difference in fastest laps (Sidi 2.48.96 XRR / SD 2.49.43 FXR) very similar top speeds too.

Hope this helps the GT2 class balancing.

Thanks to Mercury for the use of their server and the great racing/ testing, much fun, cheers.

SD.

+25kg for FZR

nice work I think Jay told Phil that he did a longrun with +30kg and he lost 1 - 1,2 secs / lap
with +40kg it is much over a whole sec

It will not work with this extra weights. After AS5 will come BL1 and the FZR is there a little bit faster,too.

I only partly agree, CP, as you cannot compare the line through the chicane with that. I do agree with the point, that only 10 days b4 a 24hrs event such a decision isnt wise. Additionally to that, your comparison with WE is wrong too, as the overall balance over all tracks throughout the season was nice and fine. some tracks XRR, some FZR.

So the only point that stays, is the short time towards the event.

jepp, time is running. trying to find a completely fair balancing a week before the race starts isnt a good decision. i think most of us take this more serious then other leagues/races and u need a lot of training to perfect everything. u cant do it when u have to try stints with 40kg, with 30kg and now 25... and 25 still is to much! u got infos that 30kg are to much and reduce only 5kg?? imo the max is absolutely at 15kg on a track which favours this car.

so, whatever u do now, do it please quickly.

A response on a couple of items:
1. Time frame - Yes it's short, but it's not the first test race either. We have been discussing this since the last week of December. If we have had more input earlier we already could have made a better decision. We have specifically asked for responses a couple of times, but how little did we get in return.
So only blaming us for the short time frame which is ahead of us, is not completely fair. If the teams would have been more willing to help out, things would have been much more clearer now already and everyone could have practiced with the final settings. See the GT2 class for instance where things are much more clearer already.
2. Current used settings: From the (little) response we have we've been able to determine a median. In order to see the results, we do need to validate several aspects.
3. We definitely appreciate that this league is taken more serious than others. But it also underlines the importance of a good and fair balance! We do understand that a lot of training is going on, however, is if you have trained that much than you should also be able to adapt to a change.

Our goal is twofold:
1. Better understanding what the reasons are between the cars. Is it lack of speed, stint distance, or lack of proper preparation of the set? For this we need a fair share of input to determine.
2. Secondly keep the league as competive as it was before patch Y. This doesn't mean that cars have to be identical, however it does requires for each class, each car has a fair change of winning given driven properly.

CP & Vykos: Its not like it wasnt blatently obvious that something was needed, it was anounced about 10 days ago there would be testing for re-balancing, and theres been pretty much sod all information from the FZR drivers as to what its actually capable of acheiving, very few people capable of putting in very good laps have come forward and helped out, i'd assume it isnt because they've all been busy, otherwise what difference does it make when the changes are made to those people if they havent been testing? Instead it seems they figured if they ignored the matter then it'll get forgotten about. Maybe if there was more help getting it balanced when the original discussion came along you'd have been given more notice.
If you want to vent about all this, consider who it was that made the cars like this, it sure as hell wasnt the series organisers, they didnt screw things up. The dev's were the ones that made changes 4 weeks before the race, and around that time everyone was warned we needed to assess the situation before this race. I think if anyones to blame its the people unbalancing it and those refusing to help get it re-balanced so they know what they're driving.
The sooner a suitable balance is found, the better, the XRR guys have certainly been out there helping, but most of the FZR guys have held back, plenty of people could have steped forward and helped speed this process up but that hasnt happened.
For what little its worth, ive said to Jonesy IMO this race shouldnt be going ahead, not with so many unknown factors and so little time before the race, we've reluctantly requested the original rule stating that if a physics altering patch is released teams are allowed to change cars, that would have lost us 3+ weeks of practicing for this race and what we've picked up from 3-4 months of driving the XRR and the FZR teams wouldnt have to change a thing (except what Y has done) but it was rejected because the organisers want to apply restrictions to your cars.


As for Westhill this, Westhill that, have we completely forgotten South City?? Not quite as bad as WE1, but far from level, the FZR did as many stops as the XRR meaning it gains nothing there, but if you look at the season as a whole i find it rather bizarre the FZR folk have the nerve to complaining about ONE track yet stay oddly quiet about the rest.
AS5 wouldnt have been anything like as bias as it currently is in patch X, there would have been an advantage but with the shorter stints it would have been reasonably close, now the FZR unreasonably quick, and unsuprisingly your all very reluctant for it to be corrected. Had the likes of SK had their usual drivers at WE1 they'd have been much closer than they were, their times in eTM end any claims that the XRR was unfairly quick, they're not that different on the track, the FZR had a faster HLVC (i'd bet good money it is now too!), but the pitting differences just edged it.
SO4 the FZR was putting in fastest laps considerably faster than the XRR, but this gets ignored? Did we whine, no.


Personally, disregarding whether they were balanced before the current patch or not, i think that with the 24hr race the cars should be pretty much perfectly balanced for this race, whatever the track it is that gets used, for the simple reason that if the results are worth double then it seems rather unfair that you pretty much screwed in 2 of the 3 cars. Theres always going to be tracks where one car has the advantage over another, but it seems rather unfair to reward them even further with double points, it should be a level playing ground. Im not saying THIS 24hr race should be perfectly balanced but IMO all future ones shouldn't have such a bias towards 1 car, the XRR has ONE track is definately fastest round, the FZR has a couple, and now one which receives double points, its not much of a level playing field is it. You'd all be complaining if it was WE1 getting 2x, but on the other foot its all well and good.

Ok, if there has to be weight balance (even i personally think that situation would be 100% same in X and this would be FZR track) I suggest that we use 15 or 20kg since Jay said that 30kg is to much and taking of 5kg of 30kg means nothing

Also adding to this that we have low time left before race, I think it would be fear to give at least a tent or two to FZR, since we don't have time to practice it up 100%.

Quote from AppiePils :

We do understand that a lot of training is going on, however, is if you have trained that much than you should also be able to adapt to a change.

And equally should be able to come forward with what information you've gained in the interest of keeping things fair and equal.

Quote from AppiePils :

2. Secondly keep the league as competive as it was before patch Y. This doesn't mean that cars have to be identical, however it does requires for each class, each car has a fair change of winning given driven properly.

Was only going to quote the first part, but then caught the last line, can we hold you to that??
I havent seen a post suggesting anything like that till now, but ive not seen anything suggesting the aim through-out testing was to ensure the *cars* were to be balanced as equals, its all been 'MUST be' this and 'has to be' that, listing daily changing distances which the FZR couldnt possibly be any slower than over the XRR.

If rather conveniently the 24hr race is to be the venue where the FZR is unreasonably quicker than the XRR, the Anti-Westhill if you want, whats the Anti-South City & Anti-Double points handout for the XRR? I know theres little point arguing the 2x points on whats become an FZR bias venue, but its something that should be considered in future IMO, i just hope the XRR is at least allowed to capable of competing for a podium place.

Talking of daily changes to what it must be...


NIKI:
Want a 20 lap headstart too? Maybe if you guys dont help even more you could ask for 50 instead.

Quote from PaulC2K :

NIKI:
Want a 20 lap headstart too? Maybe if you guys dont help even more you could ask for 50 instead.

yes, XRR driver

Time?!?!?!?!?! The race is over a week away.....

I love hearing the westhill argument come up again and again, as I said before and i'll say it again, it was nothing to do with the balance issues, it was the strategys.

I tested 20kg on the FZR yesterday and although I never had a 39 untill lap 10, it was a 39.41.

I'm going to give it another go on 20kg as my first attempt at a setup was rather weak, but it's quite hularious how we have more people posting there input on the balancing, now that they have a weight penalty.

Always the same argument, XRR...blabla...Westhill.
That was one track, all other tracks were better for the FZR.

And can anyone explain me, why Aston Grand Prix should be an FZR Track ?? There are many fast Corners where the XRR should be faster, and a few hairpins, so in my opinion XRR and FZR should have the same speed.

In my opinion should the FZR get 20 kg's added, cause 30 are really to much, but 20 should be ok.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Was only going to quote the first part, but then caught the last line, can we hold you to that??
I havent seen a post suggesting anything like that till now, but ive not seen anything suggesting the aim through-out testing was to ensure the *cars* were to be balanced as equals, its all been 'MUST be' this and 'has to be' that, listing daily changing distances which the FZR couldnt possibly be any slower than over the XRR.

Talking of daily changes to what it must be...

That has always been our goal.

Secondly, Out of the provided data from any participating team are not necessary made from a neutral point of view, but may be colored.

That is the reason we will not follow suggestions blindly, but we will ensure we have our own set of data on which we will decide what changes we will make to ensure we reach our goal.

Again the more, fair, data we have, the earlier we can come to a conclusion and the earlier all of you specifically know the terms for next race.

Quote from AppiePils :

all posts made by any participating team are not made from a neutral point of view, but are colored like hell.

Talk about sweeping statements
I disagree with you on that.

Test impressions:

20kg - car feels/acts almost the same way as 0kg. (Handling in corners)
I was about 0.5 sec slower than with 0kg.

25kg - this makes difference, car understeers on enters and gives much less apex speed, so you need to delay with power out. I did only few laps with this, so i don't have really time to post. I believe it would be about 0.8 sec difference at least.

Do you mind to change 20kg for FZR, according to my, Jay's, DreaF's and other FZR drivers 25kg is to much?

If you guys test with these settings, please post here what kind of times you get in hotlapping/qualifying, and in any longer stints tests. Otherwise, (like for the FZR) saying any of these weights are "too much" or "too little" does us NO good at all in making a decision.

Seems the overall target is that both the GT1 XRR and FZR needs to be in the 2:39's on average for race pace. And in GT2, 2:49's for a quick time I presume.

Quote from Tweaker :

If you guys test with these settings, please post here what kind of times you get in hotlapping/qualifying, and in any longer stints tests. Otherwise, (like for the FZR) saying any of these weights are "too much" or "too little" does us NO good at all in making a decision.

I post my time difference to old times.
You've no use from my lap time cos every driver does different lap times...
Just keep on mind that 2.38.2 is best with FZR ever done with 0kg and 2.38.9 with XRR.

What am I wrong about NIKI? All I ask is that you guys post times instead of giving us no information at all. Especially you.

How slower it should be than before?
edit: I mean lap times

All we ask to have specific data for us to validate. A simple post with 'didn't go well, do such and such' adds nothing to the discussion.

Again we need data to validate provide us with the data (.spr/mpr, table with lap times, possibly through lfsworld, join the test race) so we have input to make a decision.
Again, GT2 has already been tested fairly well, and the teams continue to test to ensure it's properly balanced. Is it so hard to understand that we want the same for GT1?

Comment from the peanut gallery:

I find it interesting that 25kg is making this much of a difference. Last season in the LOTA Grand Touring Cup, iirc rcpilot and forbin were routinely running with +80kg and losing only about a second a lap. That's +80kg on top of whatever the master server weight penalty was.