Had some interesting thoughts that were sparked off by reading some other discussion that mentioned rFactor...

First of all, I am not asking for modding in LFS - it's not time yet (if ever). However, I want to air these thoughts before they fade into oblivion (where they probably belong)

#1 One of the most often requested features for LFS over the years is for modding of cars and tracks to be supported. Scawen suggested back in the dim and distant past that when the final stage of LFS was released they would probably release some design tools to the community so that we could develop our own content.

#2 There are well known and significant negative side-effects that come with opening a sim to modders: controlling quality of content; fracturing of the community; huge complexity for users

#3 Probably the best thing about LFS is the innovation. Stuff like 'instant' online racing, unique features of the physiscs engine and the amazing concept of LFSWorld.
It seems like Scavier are not happy to just do their version of whats already been done. They first analyse existing concepts and then try to find solutions for existing problems.

Putting these things all together got me wondering how Scavier might add modding to LFS and avoid the problems.

I imagine some sort of central mod database and a requirement that all mods must be 'registered'.
For on-line play, LFS would only allow registered mods to be loaded - the master server would be contacted for validation every time a client or server tried to run a modded online game. This would mean only registered mod content could be used. If a mod had been locked of banned, the master server would close or refuse to accept a server trying to use it.
We cannot expect the devs to test and rate every mod, but there would be rules about download availability and some sort of reporting mechanism so that bad mods can be reported and locked/removed.
A user rating system would also be useful - a mod with enough votes and a low rating might cause a warning to be displayed to the user.

What about dealing with the complexity?
A centralized system like this makes it possible to turn the end user nightmare of setting up a massively modded game into a walk in the park!
The ingame server lists could have mod related filtering
Mods would be required to maintain a working download link in the central database or risk being automatically 'locked' (as soon as any players' LFS client fails to download a mod, it can be auto-locked to ensure that it can only be used if everyone has access).
When a player tries to join a server that requires a mod they don't have, or a more recent version than they have, LFS would tell them about the mod/update, with a description, some other info (maybe some sort of user rating) and a file size. Then ask if they want to download the required components.
Streamlining the installation process in this way would make modding way more accessible. It would also help to prevent all the issues of everyone having different versions of a mod, or not being able to find a download.

Sure there are problems with these ideas: potential security issues with third party download links; problems with arbitration for 'unfairly' locked mods.. and others that I've not considered, but it seems like it should be possible to add modding to LFS in the future without all the huge problems that it has caused for other games.

So what are the other problems, and what other features would a central mod server make possible?

(apologies in advance if these ideas already exist in some other game and I'm just an ignorant fool )

cheers

Col

In addition, mods uploaded to the database should be 'offline only' until they have been downloaded and rated high enough by enough people. That will help to ensure only mods that can cut the mustard even make it to the world of online-age.

I'm one of those few in favour of modding; in the future, if done right. I don't want an rF situation, I love this sim too much.

[EDIT] Oh yes, and of course only available to users holding the newest licenses. The devs do need to pay for the bandwidth of the database, after all.

To cover for the bandwith, maybe some sort of system like the high-res skins... Anyway, this is probably a very loooooooooooong way off still

The bandwidth should be very low, the database would only hold stuff like info text and a download URL. The actual download would be from some external server not owned by Scavier - it would be up to the mod maintainer to ensure that the download was always available. If it became unavailable, the mod would be auto-locked.

If mods involved some sort of pay-per-view thing like the hi-res skins do, then there would be the risk of fracturing the community, so IMO that would be a no-no.

what you describe col is like a pure system, with white list and black list

Pure mode in the server would be official content only, loading from encrypted unmodified files that remain unmolested even if you install 1000 mods. The white list allows certain mods in some servers, while black listing can block all the rest.

Say you want your drag server to have the smoke mod, but not allow slick mod, you white list smoke mod, but black list slick mod, or you turn on pure mode and play it how the devs made it.

I animate for other fps games, as well as model a bit. I would LOVE to see custom content in lfs beyond skins

THe problem is, if the devs had anything to do with it (and they approved the mods), car companies could demand payment from them. Just because of the involment. And paying for the downloads sucks - what about those of us that don't have a credit card and can't pay for the skins (sent the money via post for S1/S2)? We have the lower res skins. But what witht he mods then? Invisible cars beating us?

Primoz has it right regarding licencing. So, here's my idea

• People can make FANTASY cars and tracks for LFS. They send them to a member of a panel of respected community members. They would use normal formats, not LFS's encrypted ones. No specific modding tools.
  
• This group of community members vets the content every month. They will either flatly reject it, say "looks good - but it isn't ready yet. Come back next month" or accept it. They should be very tough on stuff, no fixed numbers but it should be of current quality or higher. These panel would have watermarked (so the person that leaks it can be promptly lynched) and separatly unlockable (so they can be stopped working, and would need internets activation every time they are used) copies of LFS able to try these things.
  
• Accepted stuff would be sent to the devs for another quick look and in most cases inclusion.
  
• The content gets included with normal patches.
  

It's got the advantages that the turd will be sent back but the cream will get put in. It also won't facture the community as it will be included in regular patches.

I still say not thanks for any modding in LFS, I know it would turn out bad, and the physics engine would be run to bits because it probably wouldn't be set up right and we'd have all these cars driving around like space ships (or boats).

Even if the physics are kept intact, just quality control wise, I know very little would be correct, it would take professional game modders to make something that is close to realistic, but even then it's just as realistic as the cars are in LFS.

-1 always and forever.
sorry to many issues

Quote from XCNuse :

I still say not thanks for any modding in LFS, I know it would turn out bad, and the physics engine would be run to bits because it probably wouldn't be set up right and we'd have all these cars driving around like space ships (or boats).

That's why we are talking about possible routes for quality control.

Quote :

...it would take professional game modders to make something that is close to realistic, but even then it's just as realistic as the cars are in LFS.

What are you on about? Most games that have become massively moddable have mods much more realistic than any other game.. aside from LFS, which is the trump card so far. If LFS became moddable in some way, you can bet the cream would rise to the top and the great stuff would be very realistic; and that cream is the stuff that we will accept for inclusion in the game.


My biggest (and really only) problem with LFS right now is lack of content. Don't give me that multiple routes for tracks BS, or the 'its about the competition on the track' BS. I want more, different tracks. IE. NOT more routes at existing locations. I want something different. I also want more cars. I want a couple prototypes, some faster GT cars, some touring cars, rally cars and so on.

Eric has a lot on his plate, we all know that. Having proper mod tools will help us get the content we want without forcing Eric into slave labor

We're also not talking about now, we're talking about closer to the end of development.

Right, here's the main issues:

If you use a non-LFS server you have the same problems you have in countless other places - out of date versions. That means you find and install v1.0.4.7a only to find that the server is running v1.0.4.7b. No auto-downloads in-game lessen the server load, but cause issues with external hosts and the risk of viruses.

The other problem is quality. You let people have free reign over what gets released and you end up with 4000 versions of Nordschleife and 20000 M3s. But which is the good one? Do you have to try them all to find out? Then hope a server is running it. Then hope you have the right version. Bleh.

I don't think the licensing issue is real though. Mods are free, so you're not selling a copyrighted piece of material. If that was the case, tons of other games would be in big legal trouble through modding. But they're not.

I still think that in terms of tracks, my old idea for a detailed track creation tool is the most useful idea, at least from a user's point of view. No downloads, just on-the-fly creation of parts. I can't remember where the original post was, but Scawen is welcome to hear my idea by email or PM if he wants all the details. Could work either in-game or as a seperate application to minimise the game download.

Cars are another matter, but you could get a basic one working using the same idea as Tweaker. You could set up specific car details - engine type and position, weight, gear ratios, wheelbase, whatever you need to create a working physics model, then upload the bodywork template. The only thing that would need stored is the body template, the rest would be generated by LFS when you log in to match the server car settings. The body download would be fairly small and could be stored on the server itself. There wouldn't be a great damage model, but it would be a start.

-1, modding won't work for LFS...

the good thing about LFS is the limited choice of cars, you are guaranteed to find a full server where you can race with people..

What does it matter if you have 12 HP less or more, why do you want to have a different looking car..?

Modding would ruin LFS. Don't do it.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Primoz has it right regarding licencing. So, here's my idea

• People can make FANTASY cars and tracks for LFS. They send them to a member of a panel of respected community members. They would use normal formats, not LFS's encrypted ones. No specific modding tools.
  
• This group of community members vets the content every month. They will either flatly reject it, say "looks good - but it isn't ready yet. Come back next month" or accept it. They should be very tough on stuff, no fixed numbers but it should be of current quality or higher. These panel would have watermarked (so the person that leaks it can be promptly lynched) and separatly unlockable (so they can be stopped working, and would need internets activation every time they are used) copies of LFS able to try these things.
  
• Accepted stuff would be sent to the devs for another quick look and in most cases inclusion.
  
• The content gets included with normal patches.

It's got the advantages that the turd will be sent back but the cream will get put in. It also won't facture the community as it will be included in regular patches.

when are you considered a respected community member..?

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

-1, modding won't work for LFS...

the good thing about LFS is the limited choice of cars, you are guaranteed to find a full server where you can race with people..

No you aren't. Most servers run the same damned combos.

Yes I totally agree. What about Nurburgring with Porche Porsche 2.7 RS?!

I still feel that any modding should go through the devs in the end. Of course we can't bother them with tons and tons, probably mostly useless mods, it would just take too much time.
I think any mod should be allowed to be released for offline use only. Then there could a periodical community voting held on the forum where users can nominate and rate mods on several predefined criteria. Of those elected most worthy by the community, the top n will undergo final testing and evaluation by the devs. Those that pass their likely high standards would be made available for online use by "flipping a switch" on the master server.
This thorough offline testing by the community will be a tool for the mod-developers to iron out bugs and implement improvements before they are made available online, (hopefully) ensuring that no big problems will occur.
In order to prevent an rFactor-ish version hell mod updates can only be released on set intervals, once again making sure mod devs only release updates when they have undergone serious testing.

disclaimer: The above is by no means a waterproof system and it is not thoroughly thought out, but in general something like this would be the sort of path it would need to go imo, and this of course needs the devs to be willing to take this upon them.

Well if modding would be very very VERY hard that only the bravest would attempt, only the most persistent and skilled would prevail and we'd have only good stuff. Kinda like RBR is at the moment.

Quote from Primoz :

THe problem is, if the devs had anything to do with it (and they approved the mods), car companies could demand payment from them. Just because of the involment. And paying for the downloads sucks - what about those of us that don't have a credit card and can't pay for the skins (sent the money via post for S1/S2)? We have the lower res skins. But what witht he mods then? Invisible cars beating us?

If the system I suggested in my first post was used, then the devs would NOT be liable!
Are microsoft liable if someone uses windows for illegal purposes?
is an ISP liable if a customer downloads mp3s without a licence?
do youtube.com get sued every time some kid posts copyright material without permission?

If no actual mod data is stored on the central server and the devs don't actively support any mods, then they are not liable - in fact the opposite is true... because they have control of the usable mods, any licence holder that feels strongly enough that a mod is abusing their intellectual property, they can email the devs and have the mod locked or removed... kinda like how things work with youtube. This is something that the IP holders would see as a positive advantage over the likes of rFactors modding setup...

Ah, if it isn't infamous modding discussion that rises it's head again. I still find nothing more to that what I have said in older threads, I believe I have said something along lines of OP there too at some stage

Quote from col :

is an ISP liable if a customer downloads mp3s without a licence?

They were until the DMCA was passed in the US, no-one has tried in the UK tho ...

Quote :

do youtube.com get sued every time some kid posts copyright material without permission?

Not every time but the Pr£mi£r$hip have sued Youtube. So have viacom and many other groups.

I wouldn't call my system modding as it would be highly regulated, more like "community content integration".

Quote from Dajmin :

Right, here's the main issues:

If you use a non-LFS server you have the same problems you have in countless other places - out of date versions. That means you find and install v1.0.4.7a only to find that the server is running v1.0.4.7b. No auto-downloads in-game lessen the server load, but cause issues with external hosts and the risk of viruses.

This is one of the issues that my idea is specifically designed to avoid! Did you read my original post ?

Quote :

The other problem is quality. You let people have free reign over what gets released and you end up with 4000 versions of Nordschleife and 20000 M3s. But which is the good one? Do you have to try them all to find out? Then hope a server is running it. Then hope you have the right version. Bleh.

The idea is that you don't worry about if there is a sever running the mods you have... you look for a busy server and click join. If it's using a mod that you don't have, LFS can automatically download and setup the mod for you - correct version, correct settings.
You never have to worry about getting all the latest mods, you just do what you always did - click on a populated server and let the system do the rest.

If a mod is rubbish, it wont last - people will soon leave the server to find a better one and it will quickly die a natural death.

-------------------------------

I'm personally not that bothered either way about having new content - I don't play LFS 24/7, and theres still plenty of combos that I haven't explored to anything like their full potential.

However, I am interested in this from a systems point of view.
I think the only valid negative issue that has been highlighted so far is related to IP rights.
The problem is that if IP owners can have mods locked and removed by e-mailing the devs, then we may not be able to have community built versions of real cars and tracks - because they will be quickly removed from the system. I guess that's just a wait and see what happens kind of thing - maybe IP holders won't have an issue with it because there's no money money in it for the lawyers. I'm sure if they really were that concerned, then there would have been a load of cease and desist letters sent to modders in the rFactor community? Is that something that has happened?

Quote from col :

I'm sure if they really were that concerned, then there would have been a load of cease and desist letters sent to modders in the rFactor community? Is that something that has happened?

IIRC when someone tried to make a BTCC mod for something someone sent out a cease and desist ...

Quote from duke_toaster :

IIRC when someone tried to make a BTCC mod for something someone sent out a cease and desist ...

Happened with A1GP, too. Also, Tommy Bahama doesn't like having its logos used in games unofficially, either.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Primoz has it right regarding licencing. So, here's my idea

• People can make FANTASY cars and tracks for LFS. They send them to a member of a panel of respected community members. They would use normal formats, not LFS's encrypted ones. No specific modding tools.
  
• This group of community members vets the content every month. They will either flatly reject it, say "looks good - but it isn't ready yet. Come back next month" or accept it. They should be very tough on stuff, no fixed numbers but it should be of current quality or higher. These panel would have watermarked (so the person that leaks it can be promptly lynched) and separatly unlockable (so they can be stopped working, and would need internets activation every time they are used) copies of LFS able to try these things.
  
• Accepted stuff would be sent to the devs for another quick look and in most cases inclusion.
  
• The content gets included with normal patches.

It's got the advantages that the turd will be sent back but the cream will get put in. It also won't facture the community as it will be included in regular patches.

Having an almighty panel of 'respected' members would cause more trouble than it would solve - if there's one sure fire way to cause splits in a community it's giving that level of power to some members and not others. There's too much room for personal agendas and grudges... how do you choose the panel? a vote? lol

If you can ensure that the installation of mod content can be transparent and robust, and you can include some sort of user rating system, then the cream of the crop would float to the top, and poor mods would soon vanish into the mire - no need for a panel of selectors.

Having selectors also makes the legal position more difficult to manage - are the panel sanctioned by the devs?
If they're not then how can the panel be justified as a mechanism thats part of the official LFS system.
If they are officially sanctioned, then mods they accept are, by association, also officially sanctioned and the devs become liable for IP infringements.

The only way I see a panel of members being a viable option is if the mod system is not part of the official LFS software, and that leaves us with basiacally the same mod 'system' that rFactor has - which is something that the majority here do not want(at least that's my understanding)

Quote from col :

Having an almighty panel of 'respected' members would cause more trouble than it would solve - if there's one sure fire way to cause splits in a community it's giving that level of power to some members and not others. There's too much room for personal agendas and grudges... how do you choose the panel? a vote? lol

I suggest that those persons are kept anonymous, then.

Quote :

Having selectors also makes the legal position more difficult to manage - are the panel sanctioned by the devs?
If they're not then how can the panel be justified as a mechanism thats part of the official LFS system.
If they are officially sanctioned, then mods they accept are, by association, also officially sanctioned and the devs become liable for IP infringements.

What IP infringements?

Quote from Me :

People can make FANTASY cars and tracks for LFS. They send them to a member of a panel of respected community members.