Quote from avih :

If you're behind and hit someone infront at breaking, it's always the "behind"'s guy fault. Rarely it happens to me too and the proper thing to do is apologise, even if the breaking driver was breaking very early.

I really hate when people say this, it's so wrong. If someone brakes a few metres earlier than you 10, 20 then yeah you should account for that. If they break 50m earlier than the breaking point or even more sometimes when you are trying to pass them in their slipstream or something (nowhere near the corner yet) and they break to take it at about 20mph, then it's THEIR (the slow person's) fault. If they don't practice offline first until they at least know the track and they are going around 30 secs/lap off the pace then they can't blame others for hitting them. If there was an f1 car with a 50bhp engine driving around in a race and people were hitting the back of it would it be their fault? No it wouldn't.

Obviously often it is the fault of the person behind, but definately not 100% and most experienced drivers hit slower cars because they brake much, much much too early imo.

i think that if someone brake TOO early (50 m early than the breaking point) and someone behind push him out..... it's not faster's fault and behind racer... obviously...we are racer and noone let you pass whitout "fighting".... we just have to understand what does mean FIGHTING!!!

When the fast car hits the back of the slow car under braking - isn't always clear cut who's to blame. Of course in the real world when everyone is of a much closer standard on the track, it's the fault of the guy behind. But when some newbie has no clue of the braking zones and barely knows their way round the track, is it still the fault of the faster guy when the newbie brakes so much earlier than even medium-speed racers?

I'd say that just as the fastest guys have the majority of the responsibility being tolerant and careful around the newbies, the newbies have a responsibility to practise offline until they can get round the track with reasonable consistency and not be a mobile chicane. Admittedly the learning curve is much faster when racing online - you can follow other cars, ask for their setups, watch in spectator mode to see their lines, etc. But if I was to race my FZR on a brand new circuit tonight, I wouldn't dream of doing so unless I'd spent some time in single player at least getting an idea of where to aim to brake and what speed to expect to get through each corner. And then when I'm online, I'd look to expand my knowledge of driving the circuit, not start it.


On a similar note I was spectating on the hugely popular AS3/GTR combo last night before joining in for a handful of races. As I joined the server and started to spectate, the race was on lap 4/5 and the leader wasn't one of the super-quick guys. In fact a lot of the super-quick guys appeared to have retired or dropped by the wayside, and this lead car wasn't particularly quick - getting lines wrong, locking wheels, and having to use considerable amounts of opposite lock to keep it all under control. But despite that, I can only presume he was having a ball, since with the laptimes he was running he would rarely get to lead a 5 lap AS3 race.

That's until a super-quick guy (regular 1:43s) racing for a well known team (I won't mention any names) caught him up, and drove so aggressively that what happened next was inevitable. On lap 5/5 they came down to the chicane, with the team member having spent the previous half lap all over the back of the leader, often only inches apart. Under braking for the chicane, teh leader got it crossed up slightly, slid, and the team car which was following so closely, ran into him and crashed him out on teh very last turn of the race. The team car apologised and carried on unhindered... and in the process, unlapped himself. illepall

Quote from joshdifabio :

I really hate when people say this, it's so wrong. If someone brakes a few metres earlier than you 10, 20 then yeah you should account for that. If they break 50m earlier than the breaking point or even more sometimes when you are trying to pass them in their slipstream or something (nowhere near the corner yet) and they break to take it at about 20mph, then it's THEIR (the slow person's) fault. If they don't practice offline first until they at least know the track and they are going around 30 secs/lap off the pace then they can't blame others for hitting them. If there was an f1 car with a 50bhp engine driving around in a race and people were hitting the back of it would it be their fault? No it wouldn't.

Obviously often it is the fault of the person behind, but definately not 100% and most experienced drivers hit slower cars because they brake much, much much too early imo.

I don't think so. It's an online simulation where many racers of varying skills race. Unless you're on a private server/league where there are minimum qualifications to enter, you have to live with the fact that some racers are much slower than you.

I hate it when I hit someone from behind because he was breaking 50m earlier than where I break, nevertheless, I usually appologise afterwards because I should have seen he's slower than me and therefore expect unexpected behaviour by him during a turn.

Of course, I'm excluding intentional breaking just to cause the driver behind to hit (and when people ignore blue flags because they terribly underestimate the speed at which the car behind will close the gap right into a hairpin), but as long as the other player tries his best (and most usually do I think), it's the responsibility of the faster racers to try and pass safely and expect the unexpected.

Easier said than done though, I get annoyed too by such things occasionally.

Quote from STROBE :

When the fast car hits the back of the slow car under braking - isn't always clear cut who's to blame. Of course in the real world when everyone is of a much closer standard on the track, it's the fault of the guy behind. But when some newbie has no clue of the braking zones and barely knows their way round the track, is it still the fault of the faster guy when the newbie brakes so much earlier than even medium-speed racers?

You are in right...beginners racers, as I AM, should learn the track off-line, so when they'll play online they will have more fun, because they know what are they doing and where are they going!!!
I repeat... i installed the game 5 days ago... and for the first 2 days i play offline on BL track with a XR GT TURBO, trying many set up and learning the track...
Now... my laps aren't so fast (the best was 1:28.58), but when i got online game i really have fun, because sometimes i won some race, just because i learned the track and how to drive the car offline!!!
If i didn't do that and join online race without learning offline....i don't know if i still have fun, just because i did'n know the car and the track!!!
That is important...
Beginner as I AM... learn the track and learn to drive offline before getting online games!!!

I get annoyed when some super fast guys mess up the first corner, then crash into me trying to make it back up the field..(although normally the race gets restarted...because they dont like it, and feel that only they are allowed to win :mad: ).....people must realise and be patient around less experienced/fast drivers, and its not fair o ban them..they will become good one day...

Thankfully I survived being totaly new and shit...and can now hold my own...and I have respect for beginers...because I was one (still am reallly) and I kno how tough it can be to begin with..

Well LFS is a simulation more than a game I'd say. There's no way I'd take to a 'fast' track session without having practiced first in real life, and I'd expect some of that to be reflected in the online experience. As a complete beginner I wouldn't want to hold up or ruin a race with my irratic, crossed up, early braking nonsense!

But on the other side, there's nothing better for learning than having your back-side spanked all over the circuit by the pros!

I tried to learn ofline...but it cant be done...

You have to see the good players and the lines they take...and you can't learn how to attack/defend with AI opponents.....(especially when they 10 secs a lap too slow on the hardest setting...)

i disagree. i downloaded hotlaps and also races to study. then i practised offline. that has improved my driving more than during 5 lap races online where half the field desintegrates in turn one.
also, i figure, that these short races generally don't draw the more disciplined folk (with exceptions, of course!).

cheers,

roland

The thing is how do you learn how to act into the first corner...

When you start you may go in thinking you can attack and make up places...but sooner or later you learn this aint the way to go...

you can only learn how to race properly online...

When I said to learn the basics of a circuit offline, I was talking about braking points and the issue of faster cars ramming into the backs of unpredictably slow people.

When it comes to the (on topic) subject of T1, obviously you can't practice that offline. But nonetheless you know whether you're quick or not, and in fact whether you are quick or slow makes little difference as trying to attack at T1 is rarely a good idea. Only if you see a gap in the traffic ahead and you know you have the grip/power/brakes to put your car there straightaway, then go for it. If you only think you can do it, then chances are you can't and you'll cause a pile-up as you lunge for the gap.

Yes you can only learn how to race online, and learning how to race into T1 only comes with experience, which is all the more reason why newbies should approach T1 more cautiously until they gradually gain more of a feel for jockeying alongside other cars and adjusting their driving accordingly. Of course, learning the basics of the track offline will help enormously as then when you go back online, you can concentrate more on racing/avoiding the other cars, rather than simply getting round the corner itself.

offline get your speed, online get your experience. if you are up to speed you are ready for experience.

You know the more I think about it, Single player isn't really all that good
to learn much for online racing. Even if you do "learn" the track on single player.
It won't really prepare you for what the online racing is about.
Also, if you just do single player, all your braking points and how you keep
your line will be radically different than in multi-player, in some cases actually
making you a worse driver. Nah, I think the best thing to do is get into a server with only a few people in it. Spectate a bit to see what they are doing
THen go out there and try your best. Ask for help and advice (not a set up)
for how to deal with whatever track. Try to do what they are doing as they race.... THEN go to single player, pick the same track and try there.
I never got anything from watching replays. They are usually posted hotlaps.
And if it is a race replay, there will be certain factors that determined why the guy on the replay did so well. these factors most likely won't be
happening the exact same way ever in another race - even with the same
people and the same track.
There really insn't anything that can be done for the first turn crashes... try to hang back and just drive through the carnage if you start in the
back of the field. If you start in the front, try to go fast enough to avoid the impending wreck. Usually though, somebody comes flying out from behind and manages to nail you anyways

you cant find your speed offline...

this was my problem...the AI is horrendusly slow on the hardest setting....I thought I was really good, ntill I get online and find people going 10 secs faster!

Quote from tristancliffe :

The vast majority of quick racers would never hit a slower person on purpose. But it's very difficult to judge just how slow beginners are.
The faster guys obviously expect you to brake a bit earlier, and go a bit slower through the apex, but we cannot possibly imagine just how early and how slow some people go.

In that respect, it's probably better for everyone if beginners made every reasonable effort to let faster drivers through quickyl and safely - eventually you'll be quick enough to overtake them! And at the first corner it's unlikely you will win the race with a slingshot down the inside 40mph faster than anyone. Don't do it.

I agree with you for the most part. It's everyone's responsibility to drive, well... responsibly. But that second paragraph bugs me on an attitude level. If it's a blue flag, I'll be leaving plenty of room. But if it's a full on race for position, you are going to have to get around me in a racely fashion, regardless of how much slower I am. I expect you to be a gentleman. As I will be in front. Being a gentleman includes not giving you the position like I might give a child the win at chess. (Actually, children typically give me the win at chess. But you know what I'm saying.) I do not block in public races unless I know the person I'm racing very, very well. I do not use erratic lines. I do however, from time to time, get nervous and become less than solid in my intention. As "the follower" I also expect and look for those traits in the one I am hounding. It's all part of maturity and cunning.

Part of being a gentleman also includes knowing when I am solid. I give positions to quicker drivers frequently if I know I'm holding them up for no reason. But if I'm sticking my line within a few seconds of WR, and sticking within a few 10ths every checkpoint, then I consider it my right and duty to go for the win. This is when I become the most frustrating for the quick driver. I'm solid. Just quick enough to be a chore to get around. I don't make mistakes. That's when I get punted by the odd impatient veteran. When I say punted I mean intentional removal from the racing line. Not a racing incedent. It doesn't happen often, but there are a few who simply let the red mist take over.

Part of the task is also being able to withstand the heat of someone on your tail. Online is the only place you can get that sort of mental training. So in my opinion, whatever happens on public servers is par for the couse. That includes the solid mature races, and the cluster frags.

(This from an intolerant hot head who deep down, really believes that if you can't lap within 3 tenths per minute under severe duress, you shouldn't be on the track. LFS public servers have made me a better human being. And I'm not just saying that.)

Offline practice helps, by stuying faster people's lines you know the approximate path you need to take. Practice the cars and tracks, until you
1) can drive a clean lap when needed
2) have a feel of each car and track, so you know how fast you can take each corner following the outside lane
3) have learned how late you can brake on your own, and how early you may have to brake in case you need to hug the inside of the curve all the way.

Once you know you can take any lane you want, playing online becomes much easier, as you're no longer guessing..

When going to T1 directly behind someone, make sure you brake earlier and you're not attached to the rear bumper of the car in front. When you observer the situation like this, you can compensate and change lanes if someone else makes a mistake in front of you.

Yes. And I think part of the T1 trouble arrises from some people not knowing what the brake marker is from a standing start and some people knowing. Now we have a group of cars, all with different brake markers.

I know I have that trouble. I do practice new tracks online and don't like being forced to the front before I know a track. That's when I start the race from the pits. (Doesn't help my learning the standing start brake marker does it? Doh!)

I think online practice is perfectly valid in low populated servers providing you use the map to put yourself on track as far away from others as possible. You can also fire up an empty server and change to the track you just left because it was too hectic for you to be on track. By the time others start joining, you should be up to speed.

My general philosophy is: if you suspect the guy behind you is going to try and seriously outbrake you, get out of the way. Move to the side and tap your brakes before full braking to give warning. Let him rocket ahead, then take a tight line and repass him on the inside of the exit because slow in=fast out. Keeps everyone safe, and looks very impressive when you pull it off.

Quote from Iron_Maiden :

you cant find your speed offline...

this was my problem...the AI is horrendusly slow on the hardest setting....I thought I was really good, ntill I get online and find people going 10 secs faster!

i find my speed offline but not with the AIs just me and the track.

Quote from speedykev :

i find my speed offline but not with the AIs just me and the track.

It's the best thing to do...run lap after lap trying to to get better laps...
When you drive as fast as you can, making a clean lap, with the TOTAL control of your car...you can do "anything" in online race...and having a really good time and fun!!!

Quote from 5th Earth :

My general philosophy is: if you suspect the guy behind you is going to try and seriously outbrake you, get out of the way. Move to the side and tap your brakes before full braking to give warning. Let him rocket ahead, then take a tight line and repass him on the inside of the exit because slow in=fast out. Keeps everyone safe, and looks very impressive when you pull it off.

Damn RIGHT!!!!!!!

Quote from Iron_Maiden :

you cant find your speed offline...

this was my problem...the AI is horrendusly slow on the hardest setting....I thought I was really good, ntill I get online and find people going 10 secs faster!

you definately CAN find your speed when driving offline (hotlapping), BUT i think driving offline can be really demotivating and i understand, why new racers do not want to practice offline (i didn't do that myself when i was new).

but when you are careful (yes i let the whole field pass the first times i tried racing on blackwood), you can have the enjoyment of battleing with other "learners" online without putting other racers in danger.

Personally I find racing offline with ai good practice for racing online with others. Trick is to race with the ai and not attempt to blow past them all at once. If you attack one car at a time you'll soon find where the safe zones are and it prepares you for all the odd brake points and drivers cutting in on you. Something that you find all to often online. Imho if you can race clean with LFS's AI your ready for most that online racing can present.
Another cause of "bad" driving is a direct result of hot-lapping, ppl get so set in specific lines they forget how to run in a crowd. You see this alot on lap 1 turn 1, personally, without ever looking, I always assume someone is beside me and I adjust my line accordingly, but, even doing that you still find someone not thinking and fires off to the preferred line, which isn't really the correct line in traffic.
But the grandaddy of all is the chaps that cause the big wrecks, then proceed to request a restart, over and over and over and over. You soon see pll blocking the chat, Thank god....well atteast the devs for including this function In a 5-6 lap race, this attitude, I wrecked, please forgive me, I want another try.....NOW!! is hogwash. Suck it up, lick your wounds and run some much needed practice laps.

Have you tried to get out of the way of faster drivers coming down to T1? Check mirrors and pull over a bit and the four cars behind come through side by side and you still get shoved off. Remember it is possible to lift off a bit at the start to see what the car in front is going to do instead of glueing your foot to the floor. It also gives a lot more scope to hang back a bit to avoid the carnage that often appears at T1. The other night this paid off and I was in second for a whole half lap before I got caught!

I personally don’t think a faster driver has the right even to ask a beginner to let him by easy . One of the best races I ever had was with a person on AS club in a FOX . I was about 2-3 sec a lap faster than him , but he defended his position like his life depended on in , I just couldn’t get by him cleanly enough without causing a major accident , but I respect the fact that the person is in front of me and has the right to defend his position , ofcourse I would be upset if he started blocking on purpose and do things against the "rules" .