As I prepared for and drove the 24hr race these past few weeks, I noticed a few things that would improve multiclass racing:

1. Class-based fast lap alerts. It would be very cool if the fast laps for each class would be reported, rather than just the overall fast lap. Victor could just add an extra 3-letter code before the "Fast Lap" text... i.e. "TBO Fast Lap" or "nGTR Fast Lap." It's helpful to know how fast the class leader is running if you're not in the fastest class.

2. Class-based blue flags. Several times during the 24hr race we in the nGTR cars would have longer runs without disco'ing/telepitting than some of the full GTRs, which would lead to us being "ahead" of them on the server. As a result, we sometimes didn't get blue flag alerts when faster cars were approaching, leading to rude surprises. It would be nice if you got a blue flag alert no matter what the relative position is, if the car approaching behind you is of a higher/faster class. (This problem is sort of a byproduct of the "unfinished" nature of LFS--i.e. no tow trucks/garage repairs, etc--but it's an issue at the moment.)

I know there are arguments against each of these, so feel free to debate it, obviously.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

As I prepared for and drove the 24hr race these past few weeks, I noticed a few things that would improve multiclass racing:

1. Class-based fast lap alerts. It would be very cool if the fast laps for each class would be reported, rather than just the overall fast lap. Victor could just add an extra 3-letter code before the "Fast Lap" text... i.e. "TBO Fast Lap" or "nGTR Fast Lap." It's helpful to know how fast the class leader is running if you're not in the fastest class.

2. Class-based blue flags. Several times during the 24hr race we in the nGTR cars would have longer runs without disco'ing/telepitting than some of the full GTRs, which would lead to us being "ahead" of them on the server. As a result, we sometimes didn't get blue flag alerts when faster cars were approaching, leading to rude surprises. It would be nice if you got a blue flag alert no matter what the relative position is, if the car approaching behind you is of a higher/faster class. (This problem is sort of a byproduct of the "unfinished" nature of LFS--i.e. no tow trucks/garage repairs, etc--but it's an issue at the moment.)

I know there are arguments against each of these, so feel free to debate it, obviously.

I thought about these same points while i was racing last night, and I would agree with what you have suggested. I can't see any arguments against the first point, although the second one may be less straight forward.

It took me a minute to get what you meant by the second point, and I'm still not quite sure on it; why did LFS think you were on the same lap as the faster class car if you were not actually on the same lap?

If you are on the same lap then no blue flag should be given I don't think. IIRC, blue flags are not given IRL in that situation, but I haven't payed that closed of attention when I'm at the track.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, good suggestions. :up:

Quote from MAGGOT :

It took me a minute to get what you meant by the second point, and I'm still not quite sure on it; why did LFS think you were on the same lap as the faster class car if you were not actually on the same lap?

If you are on the same lap then no blue flag should be given I don't think. IIRC, blue flags are not given IRL in that situation, but I haven't payed that closed of attention when I'm at the track.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, good suggestions. :up:

This is why the suggestion is iffy:

In the 24hr race telepitting and disconnects were allowed, as the tracker (http://24h.lfs-tracker.de/) kept track of the overall running order in the race. Therefore, if a nGTR had run 50 laps since its last disco/telepit but a GTR approaching had telepitted, say, 10 laps ago... the nGTR wouldn't get a blue flag warning (because according to the server's running order it's ahead) despite the GTR being 20-30 laps ahead in the overall standings.

But that's just one instance. What I'm suggesting is really independent of standings, be they server-based or based on something like the 24hr tracker. I just want lower class cars to get a warning by default when a car from a faster class is approaching.

Ah ok, I understand it now. Now another question, LFS has dynamic driver changes, doesn't it? I thought it did, and if it does, why are telepits and disconnects allowed? I'm a wee bit lost here. lol

Quote from MAGGOT :

Ah ok, I understand it now. Now another question, LFS has dynamic driver changes, doesn't it? I thought it did, and if it does, why are telepits and disconnects allowed? I'm a wee bit lost here. lol

It's ok, it's sort of confusing the way it was set up.

We didn't use the telepits and disconnects for driver changes.

It's a 24 hour race, and at some point you're bound to time out, or beach it in the sand (stupid XRR!). When that happens, of course, if you're just using LFS's basic standings you lose all your progress. So someone (WolleT, I think) developed the tracker, which allows you to maintain a running order that doesn't allow discos/telepits to have that kind of catastrophic effect.

The rules of the race dictated that a disconnect (assuming it wasn't done intentionally, for advantage) doesn't cost the team anything more than the time they'd already put in for the lap they were on. In other words, when you reconnect the tracker places you at the beginning of the lap you were already on. If you were coming through the final corner when you disco'd, you lose (in the case of KY3R) ~2:20, but if you disco in turn 1 you only lose 20 seconds or so. This is done to minimize the impact on the team's race since it's out of their hands.

Telepitting is set up to give the team a 1 lap penalty per instance, since they'd have to get towed out of the sand/repair in the pits. This is actually pretty generous, but we're working within the constraints of LFS's unfinished simulation. ;]

Sorry if any of this is still unclear. I've been awake for like 35 hours. D:

because someone might loose connection to the server, or because you got your car in the gravel and cant get out, never happened to me but its just to compensate for what dwb said about the tow trucks or repairs.

I would add to that post that it would be nice to have a way to control the flags externally. That way it could be customized for multi-class endurance racing. Something that tracks the overall progress like the Tracker, and can inteligently show blue flags. I would have GTR's sneak up on me too and we never knew if they were ahead or behind us.

Another thing I'd like about the blue flags, is to see them only when the first car behind me triggers them.

It happened several times to me in league races that I gave way to the car behind me and found out when they overtook me that we were on the same lap and it was the second or the third car behind me that wasn't.

I know the map allows to make the difference, but you don't always have the time to look at it, especially on short tracks with fast cars.

AFAIK, IRL the marshalls wave the flags only at the guy who's about to be lapped. They don't wave it at you if the lapper is three cars behind you. Right?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

2. Class-based blue flags. Several times during the 24hr race we in the nGTR cars would have longer runs without disco'ing/telepitting than some of the full GTRs, which would lead to us being "ahead" of them on the server. As a result, we sometimes didn't get blue flag alerts when faster cars were approaching, leading to rude surprises. It would be nice if you got a blue flag alert no matter what the relative position is, if the car approaching behind you is of a higher/faster class. (This problem is sort of a byproduct of the "unfinished" nature of LFS--i.e. no tow trucks/garage repairs, etc--but it's an issue at the moment.)

That's an argument for saving the number of laps completed on the server, NOT for class based blue flags.

In real life two class racing, if a (say) LMP1 car is behind a (say) LMP2 car on the same lap the LMP2 won't get blue flagged.

So what you really need is a mode where LFS hands all the race management over to 'IN-SIM'... Then you update your software to take over the task.

All the flags, messages, leaderboard etc. get switched off.
stuff like flags and monitoring num laps... lead lap, whos winning etc. has to be done from in-sim.

Scawen would have to add a few extras to in-sim - other than that I guess it depends on how easy it is for him to switch off the built in race control and have in-sim take over...

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

It's ok, it's sort of confusing the way it was set up.

We didn't use the telepits and disconnects for driver changes. [snip]

Ah! Makes perfect sense now, thanks for the explanation. I think it would be best if LFS handled this, rather than a tracking program/script/etc as then LFS would know what lap you were on and keep that in the official order.

I wonder what would take more time; coding a class system where blue flags were displayed on a per class basis, or coding a system to tell LFS to remember a car's position/lap/etc in a race for the duration of the entire race?

Quote from duke_toaster :

That's an argument for saving the number of laps completed on the server, NOT for class based blue flags.

In real life two class racing, if a (say) LMP1 car is behind a (say) LMP2 car on the same lap the LMP2 won't get blue flagged.

Yes, this is true.

I suppose what I'm asking for is something along the lines of what a crew chief would do in a real race... an alert that lets the driver know that a faster car is approaching, that he's going to pass you eventually no matter what you do, and that the race isn't really for position (though, yes, occasionally LMP2 cars do win overall events--not so likely with nGTRs and GTRs tho). We could have done this over TS/Vent if we'd had LFS Spectator working, but with only the tracker to work off of, we couldn't give any useful information to the driver.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Yes, this is true.

I suppose what I'm asking for is something along the lines of what a crew chief would do in a real race... an alert that lets the driver know that a faster car is approaching, that he's going to pass you eventually no matter what you do, and that the race isn't really for position

I would like a built in team radio thing in LFS.

Quote :

(though, yes, occasionally LMP2 cars do win overall events--not so likely with nGTRs and GTRs tho)

It's because originally the LMP2 class was designed to be equal in performance to the LMP1. However, that idea was too sensible and the by the rate at which they are shrinking they won't have any holes in their air restrictors soon. Shame really, it would be sensible just to have a unified LMP class.