[edit] can't be bothered with this silly back/forth.

Quote from Renku :

Certainly not! I don't think ban first and then might answer some questions later mentality should spread wider than it already is.

Renku, the question of the OP was about the STCC license system, not about the way the STCC admins do their job. You are mis-using this thread to pick up an old fight with the admins -- and you're not even the first in this thread to do so.

This is helping no one.

Quote from SamH :

[edit] can't be bothered with this silly back/forth.

What if the internet is powered by the bad vibes from forum arguing, like the oooooooooooze in Ghostbusters 2!

By be nice we could be responcible for the downfall of the internet, are you willing to risk that?

Quote from garph :

What if the internet is powered by the bad vibes from forum arguing, like the oooooooooooze in Ghostbusters 2!

By be nice we could be responcible for the downfall of the internet, are you willing to risk that?

wsinda's right, and if anyone thinks that anyone's been unfairly removed from the STCC, you can PM me. If they want to know what process we go through before we issue bans, PM me. Becky has long-since stopped doing admin on the public servers, and it's now down to a team, of which I'm the most vocal.. so if you have issues or questions with the way the public servers are managed, PM me.

Funny, I still cant find in this thread a valid reason for not making, at least optional, the STCC ladder system idea PART of the game. It´s a shame really how close minded some people are. Why dont you keep hotlapping and let the rest of us have even more fun? Nobody asked to close your hotlap charts.

Oh, I don't know... how about it taking up time and effort on Scawen/Victor/Eric's time that are better used to work towards S3 and/or fix issues and upgrade features, such as the lack of reverse in replay (a real pain-in-the-rear for league/series admins who are used to dealing with GPL/NASCAR and even the ISI sims) or even something as simple as a XML-based race results file that gets spit out after every race so we don't have to use an InSim utility to do that.

And more importantly, STCC and other add-ons like it is one of the reasons the InSim (along with OutSim, etc.) were added to LFS in the first place.

Quote from Rayo :

Funny, I still cant find in this thread a valid reason for not making, at least optional, the STCC ladder system idea PART of the game. It´s a shame really how close minded some people are. Why dont you keep hotlapping and let the rest of us have even more fun? Nobody asked to close your hotlap charts.

What does hotlapping have anything to do with it?

Becky, I'll be honest, I really do admire your track rotation system, and I'm especially glad you've let other people use it on their own servers so I don't have to drive the TBO class all the time to use it.

Erm, afaik Becky never released the app to do it (although if you asked she'd give you some help with it), other apps such as vCom let you do it though

Oh, okay, nevermind then.

Thanks for the correction.

Quote from bbman :

Don't you find it ironic that now we got rid of the credits (and even that you had to unlock the better cars back in S1), very much people want it back (and basically relive it through the STCC)?

Yes, but (and of course I can only speak for myself...) it was simply because it was forced. I am worried because if the STCC system became the norm, then what if it was difficult to find a good server which didn't use it? It would be as good as being forced again...

Quote from Becky Rose :

STCC Public servers will be stuck on the old patch, and because I do not want to split the community across two patches (actually I think the patch would /pwn STCC!) I will have no choice but to ask SamH to down the STCC servers until the software can be updated.

Why can't you split the community? +1 for splitting the community if it means the servers keep going

Becky, wow, I don't know how you can still be posting like you are. I have never got into an argument on the internet but I don't know if even I'd be able to stay as cool as you.

Quote from wsinda :

Another area where LFS could facilitate STCC and similar systems is the administration of licenses. A "licensed" server would send its scoring (points + promotions) to LFSW. At the output side, LFSW would provide a webpage to show the status of someone's license(s), and a query service where servers can retrieve the license status. For the end-user, this would look as if licenses were integrated into LFS.

On the server side, the situation would remain as it is with STCC: a third-party add-on manages the races on the server, and LFS only provides the "hooks". Server admins would still be free to choose: whether to work with licenses or not, the scoring method, limitations on car & track choice, penalties, etc.

No, no, no and no! I'm quoting a drifter here about the same thing LfSLapper does with drifting: "Scoring only encourages one thing: bad habits." I don't want to race to get the last points to level up, at all costs... Or racing with someone who does, for that matter... With licences, you get rid of all the accessability which still is one of the strongest point of LfS: Go get a server, choose a car and race! I don't want to be limited in any way with whether or not I obtained the right licence status to be racing this car or whether or not the admin considers my licence status enough to even allow me to join! It might not be that big of a deal to you or anyone here, but it is for many people who are just not that downright fast to be finishing that high up!

Obtaining a licence status based on the training lessons would be fine, as long as there are no limiting factors attached to it... And if you really think it through, can you really afford to lock people out? Can you really afford to cut our userbase short?

Quote from bbman :

I don't want to be limited in any way with whether or not I obtained the right licence status to be racing this car

Well I suppose there wouldn't have to be car restrictions. I always found that part of Becky's game a bit unpleasant myself, but I suppose people are used to "unlocking" features in single-player arcade games so it appeals. But you could still have institutionally elitist server hierarchies without explicitly limiting what cars are available.

Quote from bbman :

or whether or not the admin considers my licence status enough to even allow me to join!

To be fair, admins make this sort of decision all the time. The only difference in this case is it's a robot doing it according to whatever criteria the admin provided.

Quote from RiGun :

I belive that the STCC system is OK, but i wouldn't like to be restricted (in all servers) to a certain class of categorie because I don't have a "licence" for other cars.

About the question involving "it really adds a lot to the game the way its done" I'm not able to see your point, there is already a ladder system in a server so the only thing that an official ladder could add is a racers ranking, a ranking involving acumulating ponts and everybody knows that oval racers tend to earn lots of "points" if you undestand what I mean, so at the end I adds nothing to the game.

Totally agree

I think it is a good thing that the choice remains with the player whether they want to take part in a STCC type ladder or not.

I don't particularly like or dislike the stcc servers, but I do like the idea of having an additional purpose for all the time spent playing this addictive game/sim, and I appreciate the effort that has gone into building such a comprehensive system.

/me puts on my flame retardant suit...

I would like to take part in more stcc races, but the following points would need to be addressed before that would happen regularly.

1. Drivers who have a higher licence than the current server they are racing on is offering should receive no points for their positions. This would stop people getting stuck on one server, and open up more opportunities for people actually trying to get the licences to progress.

2. Server admins should embark on a "let's be friendly on the STCC servers" campaign. I race in this sim for fun and to be part of this sim racing community. There is no other reward apart from that. I am generalising, but most times I have joined the stcc servers, my opposition have been sour and unfriendly, and with the occasional idiot that thinks the side of my car looks like a spare brake disk, just for a few extra points.

Point 1 is already the case btw, once your licence gets too higher for the 1st tier servers you can only race for fun and get no points.

On point 2, well, we provide the place - you provide the community. We do our best to keep a lid on behaviour, in fact to my knowledge we're the only server to have a swear filter - the purpose of which is more of a reminder to act with dignity than an effective tool at banning swear words in all honesty, but the point is we do try. I'm sorry it's not enough.

Quote from Hollywood :

Oh, I don't know... how about it taking up time and effort on Scawen/Victor/Eric's time that are better used to work towards S3 and/or fix issues and upgrade features, such as the lack of reverse in replay (a real pain-in-the-rear for league/series admins who are used to dealing with GPL/NASCAR and even the ISI sims) or even something as simple as a XML-based race results file that gets spit out after every race so we don't have to use an InSim utility to do that.

And more importantly, STCC and other add-ons like it is one of the reasons the InSim (along with OutSim, etc.) were added to LFS in the first place.

And why cant they do it with the help of someone like Becky Rose? After all its his system. They dont have to do everything alone... And also do you read what you are typing? You are comparing very irrelevant stuff (yeah I want the rewind button too) with something that could add a huge ammount of value to the game if it was implemented rightly.

This would unify the racing aspect of the game, I want to race but... I want to know where I really stand internationally and I want it to be official. So far the only way you can "compete" in this way is doing dumb solo laps offline and uploading them later to LFSWorld. And because of that, racers are more famous for their hotlapping skills than their racing skills, and that I find it a joke. We have a system that could change all that, that could be tested, improved and perfected before launch... with official LFS ladder servers like a mix between America´s Army and MMORPGs, with rotating tracks, with cool licence system, with maybe monthly race events for the best scorers... someone has to get the picture! Or not? And the best of all is that YES, you could still choose not to race with the new system and keep doing hotlaps or racing on the leagues you like more with whatever cars you wanted. Why is this so hard to understand? Is my english that bad?

Quote from ev0 :

/me puts on my flame retardant suit...

No need

Quote from ev0 :

1. Drivers who have a higher licence than the current server they are racing on is offering should receive no points for their positions. This would stop people getting stuck on one server, and open up more opportunities for people actually trying to get the licences to progress.

A Silver-licenced driver won't get any points if he races on the Bronze server. Whether it's fortunate or unfortunate, I can't say, but they do keep racing on them anyway! They're not getting the points, though.

Quote from ev0 :

2. Server admins should embark on a "let's be friendly on the STCC servers" campaign. I race in this sim for fun and to be part of this sim racing community. There is no other reward apart from that. I am generalising, but most times I have joined the stcc servers, my opposition have been sour and unfriendly, and with the occasional idiot that thinks the side of my car looks like a spare brake disk, just for a few extra points.

Yep, we do suffer from this quite a bit. No more than any other public server, but way too much IMO.

We have a swear filter on the servers, which actually looks for personally directed abuse rather than just swearwords.. I'd rather not give examples, but basically if you swear after a spin, it's less likely to spank you than if you call someone a nasty name. We don't get many reports of people being abusive, but we do get a few. In such circumstances, we will watch the MPR and we'll issue warnings accordingly. We're certainly unlikely to issue penalties unless we've already previously warned and those people are still being abusive.

oh, ok, I am glad to hear that the first has been addressed - thank you! (does that mean that if position 1 & 2 on the copper server were silver licence holders, position 3 would get the same points as if he/she came in 1st?)

I think it is the nature of the point driven game that brings out the competitive animosity in some people. Which is a pity, since it does feel like less of a community than some of the other servers I regularly race on.

Quote from ev0 :

I think it is the nature of the point driven game that brings out the competitive animosity in some people. Which is a pity, since it does feel like less of a community than some of the other servers I regularly race on.

Depends what sort of a bunch you get. It can be nice to have some proper aggressive racing happening if everybody's cool about it, but not if there are people who do nothing but complain after every race because they're not there for the racing, they're there for the points.

I think the 'lack of community' is because more time in STCC is spent racing because of the auto race restarts.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to introduce the new chat features and a new LFS IM client, and a server where you could 'hang' and chat without racing. The chat commands developed on the existing (and about to be out dated) system are extremely powerful tools, but their usage is currently too klunky and you cannot send messages from the W (V9) servers, only receive. Atm to send a message you have to be on the experimental server.

I know i've spoken aquite a lot about PM's and channels, and I think mostly their significance has washed over because atm they are not properly realised and their true value can't be demonstrated - but this is a significant step forward.

Imagine being able to chat to your friends on another server and arrange to meat up - when normally once you are in LFS that's it - your in and you are on the server that you are on and that's that.

Take the LRF channel concept, our LRF server suffers from 'momentum' in that there isn't really a large enough user base so people go on and lap by themselves and give up, having an 'LRF' channel allows people interested in racing the class to race other things until there are enough online to go and race them.

Imagine being able to have a team channel to talk to all your team mates no matter what server they are on.

Once these tools go live across the STCC servers I think we'll have unlocked a huge community potential.

If it where possible, i'd preffer STCC servers not to be the only place where private messages and channels worked. I'd like it built directly into LFS, and if the devs did that i'd happily put together a multi-platform IM client to work with it.

Before that happens though I need to sort out patch X compatibility of the SRA/STCC system and prove to you and the devs what a great community tool PM's and channels can be. Then Scawen might see the light and implement it and i'll deleta my own code in favour of the global LFS system

Quote from Rayo :

..

I do understand where you're coming from.

I think you probably have to take a step back and look at the implications of incorporating something like the STCC public "ranked servers" into LFS, and see that what the devs give credence to, by building it into LFS, they take away from the community by the same action.

If the devs built an STCC-alike system of ranking into LFS, then there would be no more community initiatives like the STCC.. and that would be a shame. There's absolutely nothing stopping anyone doing a newer, EVEN BETTER system than the STCC (with fairer admins than me, etc).. build it into LFS, and the community's impetus would be lost. Give the community itself the tools (with new InSim features, such as those on the horizon), and you can bet your bottom dollar that someone in the community will seize on it, and turn out something to blow us all away and keep us excited.

LFS thrives as a community, because so much of the thing is driven by it. It works for those who want it, and although there are a small minority of people who are vocally opposed to community initiatives (not just to the STCC, but other projects too), the majority of people understand that it's there if they want it, when they want it, because they want it.

I regard your enthusiasm for the idea to be a positive endorsement of the STCC concept, and I think that's fab. Please don't misunderstand my post

Quote from Becky Rose :

That's one of the reasons I wanted to introduce the new chat features and a new LFS IM client, and a server where you could 'hang' and chat without racing.

I hope you take this the way I intended. As a bit of friendly ribbing more than anything else.

Call me cynical, but it's an horrific waste of time - if you want to chat, consider moving to IRC (like the rest of us old farts). An IRC <-> LFS server gateway might be interesting. Again somewhat pointless in the context that racing is what LFS is about. The forums exist for a reason.

However, it shouldn't be anyone else's right to tell you what to do, so good luck (even though it's a ridiculous idea )

Incidentally, I think (in my foul mouthed opinion), that the spam filter might need a little tweaking (although I appreciate the very fine line I walk when it comes to swearing and the difficulty of detecting the context)

Quote from ev0 :

oh, ok, I am glad to hear that the first has been addressed - thank you! (does that mean that if position 1 & 2 on the copper server were silver licence holders, position 3 would get the same points as if he/she came in 1st?)

I don't *think* it's that way at the moment, but it's been proposed if it hasn't been implemented already. We have to defer to Becky's work situation at the moment, because Freddy needs food (Becky's cat.. Bronze-licenced.. walks on keyboards..). Priorities are pivotal at the moment, and getting work/money is #1

Quote :

An IRC <-> LFS server gateway might be interesting. Again somewhat pointless in the context that racing is what LFS is about. The forums exist for a reason.

Personally i've never been caught by the IRC bug because the existing clients for it I find to be overly complex and clunky for what they do. The thought of putting a server on for chat originally came about as a stop gap until the IM client is ready - which will be a while in the future now. I guess once I thought of that then boy racers playing around in a car park came to mind.

You are right to a point, but I do honestly believe PM's and channels will be to the 'community' of this sim what track rotation was to actually racing with it.

Just at this moment they are too klunky and not widely implemented.

Quote from the_angry_angel :

I hope you take this the way I intended. As a bit of ribbing more than anything else.

Call me cynical, but it's an horrific waste of time - if you want to chat, consider moving to IRC (like the rest of us old farts).

An IRC <-> LFS server gateway might be interesting. Again somewhat pointless in the context that racing is what LFS is about. The forums exist for a reason.

However, it shouldn't be anyone right to tell you what to do, so good luck (even though it's a ridiculous idea )

hehe.. we did launch down one avenue of the chatting system, and after about 2hrs of ploughing, Becky and I both kinda turned to each other...

Sam: This is never going to get used, is it?
Becky: Nope. What are we doing?
Sam: Wasting time, I think.
Becky: Okay, let's scrap that. It's a silly idea.

However.. the groups/teams aspect of it absolutely rocks. Becky did this specifically with LRF drivers in mind.. it's like a reminder service.. it tells you when everyone's online, drops you messages.. joining a group of LRF drivers, it tells you when your friends are online IN-game, and you can message across multiple servers in-game to say "LRF now, STCC3!"..

Anyway.. it does have *some* merit, but it might or might not take off. The fact that we're thinking of LRF drivers when developing is a big, red flag to me anyway