I was watching a Grand Prix earlier in which the leader was coming up to lap someone and that person was also trying to lap the car infront of him. In this situation, who has priority (i.e. the leader over the driver infront of him or the driver infront of the leader over the driver infront of him)?

I fear this might be a little hard to follow. To illustrate my point, call driver 1 the leader, driver 2 the one in the middle and driver 3 the one at the front (i.e the one who's going to be lapped by both 1 and 2). Does driver 1 have priority over driver 2 or does driver 2 have priority over driver 3?

I would say that the overall leader has priority over all, but Im a moron, so Im prolly wrong.

I see it that the leader should take more care when lapping people because the people infront are fighting aswell so there is no rush really to get past and to get past the safest has he can. If the person who the leader is coming to lap first can use it to he/her advantage e.g. by getting the person of the person being lap by surprise and keeping close enough to the leader and using the space around him/her to gain that place which he was fighting for.

You'll see a similar situation in an up-coming STCC race broadcast, actually. At least, I presume you will. It depends on whether or not the camera actually examines the situation or not, and we won't know that until the broadcast goes out. It also depends on whether you watch it, of course

Carefully without spoiling.. there was a situation where two cars (1 and 2)were being lapped (by car 3) during the compulsory pit window. They were fighting for position between themselves, and the car (3) behind was stuck. The situation couldn't be resolved until car 2 let off to allow car 3 through. That couldn't happen until car 2 could trust car 1 to also ease off, to allow 3 through as well. Car 1 couldn't ease off because of the trust issue that car 2 wouldn't seize that opportunity and gain the place and THEN allow car 3 through. It seemed like stalemate for a LONG time.

Difficult to know what the answer is. I think it has to be a marshal decision at that point, to determine if anyone behaved in an obstructive or bloody-minded manner, over and above defence of their own track position.

I think different race series run different interpretations of the blue flag rule, but if it was F1:

If you've got car 1 and car 2 being lapped by car 3, while car 2 is trying to pass car 1, It's car 2's responsibility to let car 3 past. Then, once car 3 is past car 2, it becomes car 1's responsibility to let car 3 past. Simple as that.

It doesn't matter if car 2 is fighting car 1 for position - if he ignores the blue flags to continue his battle with the car infront then he'll be penalised. Anyway, being lapped ought to give car 2 an opportunity to make a pass on car 1, because car 1 will also have to slow down to let car 3 past, so it makes sense to let the leading car past as soon as convenient if you're being lapped while fighting for position.

The outright leader has the ultimate right of passage however stewards will usually be lenient or flexible in applying the rules in these situations. Radio communication is widespread in motor racing these days and most situations are handled well by professional drivers thanks to advice from their team manager etc.

*in F1 you have three sectors to respond to a blue flag, the above situation is one of the reasons why.

That is a curly one. My common sense tells me that yielding to a car that's lapping you (in a timely and safe fashion) should take priority over your battle with the car ahead. Once you've let the leader pass it's then up to your opponent to yield to him. I think it could even work to your advantage, because you've got the opportunity to put pressure on the guy you're chasing by letting the leader pass you exactly where you want.

Something that popped up just now as I was reading about the new 2007 Season for Formula 1:

Quote :

Safety
A GPS marshalling system, involving a cockpit light display of flag signals in each driver's car, is being introduced. This will allow Race Control to alert drivers to potential hazards more effectively.

All cars must also now be fitted with a medical warning light just ahead of the driver's cockpit. This is to provide rescue crews with an immediate indication of the severity of the accident and is connected to the FIA data logger.

From - http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesandregs/
Kind of cool

I think my poor explanation has led to a couple of people misunderstanding my question. In my question no-one is fighting for position. Driver 1 is trying to lap driver 2, driver 2 is trying to lap driver 3.

From driver 3s perspective: 2 cars at least one lap ahead are behind me, and I should give way at the first safe opportunity

From driver 2s perspective: I have to give way to the following driver, but only when it is safe to do so. At the same time I can pass the driver ahead when it is safe or when he gives way. Giving way is more important than lapping, so priority should be given to driver 1 unless it is obviously better to lap 3 first.

From driver 1s perspective: Two cars ahead to lap - I'll pass them when it's safe or when they get out of the way. <he may not be aware that driver 2 is lapping driver 3, unless he has pit-car radio>

So I'd say driver 1 has priorty to lap them both unless a situation arises that allows 2 to lap 3 first.

Priority is always given to the lead car, in cases where the cars are on 3 different laps - all other factors being equal - priority is with car 3

However things usually are not equal, if car 2 caught car 1 two sectors earlier it may have priority in the sense that car 1 can only pass one more blue flag marshall before being hauled in by the stewards...

Since were at the blue flag topic, id like to ask my question.

So im racing, and i get a blue flag, i dont receve the blue flag message till we are inside the turn. At the end of the turn, he is behind me. We are at the middle of the straight (its a long straight, too). I see he is going slightly faster than me,and trying to pass at my right, so i pull over to the left of my track, but i keep my same speed since he was going faster than me out of the turn.

Thats when he starts to throw a tempertantrum and says "DUDE WTF! You had a blue flag, why did you keep going!?!?!?!". Excuse me Mr. Speedy, the blue flag rules are to simply let the racer pass you (and i told him that exactly), and he started saying that im supposed to go out of my way and actualy BRAKE just so he is ahead of me. I told him, no thats not true, your simply supposed to let them pass. If your ahead of them for a long period of time because they cant pass for whatever reason, and its getting twards the end of the race, and you have nothing to loose by braking, then yes, you brake. But in the first situation that i described, who was right, me? or the over-tempered racer?

Quote from Sketchyrollin564 :

who was right, me? or the over-tempered racer?

It's a much-examined question here. My conclusion has been (for GENERAL LFS driving - some servers have their own fantasy blue flag rules though) that you should NOT concede the line, but concede the pace, IF the car lapping you is within "striking" distance. This would be to say that you should remain predictable, and ease off. Remain predictable by remaining on the racing line but ease off, or brake way early into a corner allowing the flagger to overtake by driving at sensible race pace - or very obviously move off the racing line on a straight, and decelerate enough to allow the flagger to pass with ease without having to slow or swerve.

So basically, I'm afraid to say I don't think you were entirely right. Sorry

Quote from SamH :

So basically, I'm afraid to say I don't think you were entirely right. Sorry

Its cool, as long as i leanred from any mistakes, i can improve. But also, was the other short tempered racer entirley right? He was expecting me to go off of my line, and do whatever it takes to let him pass. If i was last in a race, i would have no problem doing this, as i have nothing to loose, but if thats not the case, its wrong for him to loose temper like that.

Also the way he said it wasnt like he wanted me to simply ease off the accelerator a tad, but it seemed like he wanted me to brake hard, so he can feel like he was that much faster than me. Also, his temper and the way he acted over a simple mistake in a video game did not make me want to be patient and nice to him either.

Quote from Sketchyrollin564 :

Its cool, as long as i leanred from any mistakes, i can improve. But also, was the other short tempered racer entirley right? He was expecting me to go off of my line, and do whatever it takes to let him pass. If i was last in a race, i would have no problem doing this, as i have nothing to loose, but if thats not the case, its wrong for him to loose temper like that.

Also the way he said it wasnt like he wanted me to simply ease off the accelerator a tad, but it seemed like he wanted me to brake hard, so he can feel like he was that much faster than me. Also, his temper and the way he acted over a simple mistake in a video game did not make me want to be patient and nice to him either.

It does vary per server. Some server admins really believe that you should roll over and play dead when you're blue-flagged. That's not a very common rule in real-life racing, though. LFS is the only place I've ever seen that kind of rule enforced, in fact.

As for losing tempers, that seems to be par for the course to some extent. There are many factors in determining what level of agitation is appropriate.. I couldn't possibly comment. All I can say is that emphatic belief that you're right, or you've been wronged, is typical of racing drivers. However, hurling abuse at, or punching Mr Speedypants's lights out, or taking a dump on his FZR's dashboard has never been deemed appropriate behaviour. Even in LFS

The way I treat it is: as soon as the guy behind you is at a distance where he could try and pass you under braking at the next corner or soon after coming out of the corner (both areas where your cars are often difficult to manuever quickly) then you should get the hell out of his way, as in let him pass you by any means necessary, and do it before you get to the next braking zone.

I'd like to add a few personal observations about blue flags:
1. It's very, very annoying to pass someone in a corner because they are on
a) my exit line and I lose a lot of speed and time down the next straight
b) the inside line and going round the outside isn't being let past
c) they make the corner before me and immediately slow down on the ideal line, forcing me to brake in the corner exit

Which is why I'd prefer blue flag passes to occur
1) Before the corner when the flagged car is on the
a) outside line, and side by side with the passing car no later than the corner turn in
b) inside line, and slows down so that the passer may safely use the ideal line

2) After the corner
a) where the flagged car holds the exit line and racing speed, so that the passing car can make the pass latest at the next corner's turn in
b) where the flagged car pulls off the line and slows down enough for the pass to happen

In a hairpin though I don't mind if the flagged car holds the outside line as long as they don't stick themselves in my corner exit line

What I see often but don't like:
1) driving in the middle of the road - I can't tell which way the flagged car is going to let me past
2) stepping on the brakes on a straight - There simply is no need for it. Wait until I'm close enough to make a real attempt at a pass and then let me thru
3) generally slowing down to below racing speed - In corners it's dangerous to find someone going way, way off the pace and causing an evasive. It's also not confidence inspiring. The next time I have to pass you I'll be wondering what stunt you're going to pull next

Here's some food for thought for those who call others to stop, significantly slow down or pull off the road: When you tell someone that, the result is a yellow flag because they're in a dangerous position. You may not pass anyone under yellow flags, so you've just shot yourself in the foot. With a shotgun.

And for those who do pull over, stop etc.: You are purposefully causing a yellow flag, i.e. such a dangerous situation that all drivers are instructed to take extra care and even stop because there's an obstacle / incident on the road. Intentionally causing a yellow flag should be punishable because it is by definition a premeditated action that leads to a dangerous situation on the track.

Quote from SamH :

...punching Mr Speedypants's lights out, or taking a dump on his FZR's dashboard has never been deemed appropriate behaviour. Even in LFS

I'd like to see these features implemented in LFS.

Oh wait, I should refrain until I have bought my license...(in 1 1/2 weeks, when school is over!)

Interesting remark, Sam. Now suppose this:
1) Parappa the Lapper prepares to lap Pippero the Lapped, that in turn moves out of the racing line to give space. Parappa has the racing line and, confident in Pippero's knowledge of the blue flag, tries to lap Pippero safely on a corner.
2) Pippero botches the corner completely because he evaluated very poorly his speed, so the car almost flies on tarmac and wrecks Parappa.
3) Parappa, quite angry, asks for an explanation without using expletives.
4) Pippero says "It's not my fault, I just lost control, and by the way you were only tenth".
5) Parappa, in complete amazement, goes to watch the replay and reassured by what he sees calls Pippero "a wrecker and a liar that's going to be reported". The discussion goes on, with Pippero saying meaningless garbage like "I race in real life". Parappa, sadly being human and quite astonished, doesn't refrain from telling Pippero what he thinks.
6) Pippero refuses to apologise after having seen the replay.
7) Parappa is still in awe for such blatant disregard of basic rules of education. Parappa feels a bit guilty too because his argument with Pippero had to be done in a better moment, without disturbing other racers.
8) Pippero, in the meantime, is gone away.
9) After a few hours, Pippero joins the server and finds Parappa. Pippero starts arguing again while Parappa tries in vain to stop the argument. Pippero sends the replay to a friend of his for evaluation. This friend of Pippero tells Parappa "It was his fault and he should have said sorry, but reporting is too much". In the meantime Pippero is gone away again, so he hasn't read the damning words of his friend.
So, in the end, Pippero's fault was only that he lost control and didn't permit Parappa the Lapper to do what he wanted safely; but the subsequent arguing and lack of apologies is extremely sad and embarassing, although not strictly related to racing conduct. What should Parappa the Lapper do in this case?

Since it was clear that Pi was at fault and refused to take responsibility even after watching the replay from both drivers' point of view, there are two things that Pa may do:
1) Accept that Pi will not apologise and be more cautious next time passing him / her.
2) Consider Pi's actions complete and blatant disregard for others around him / her and report. Remember reporting alone does not mean the target is definitely going to be banned. The incident will be reviewed by others first, who may still decide against banning.

I'd usually go with the first option, but if Pi simply couldn't hold it together a for a single lap, s/he is going to cause incidents and accidents several times a lap and that's not a very nice thing to do.

Quote from Albieg :

What should Parappa the Lapper do in this case?

What he should have done is rejoined the race with due regard for others still on the track, and carried on to finish. Starting a flame war would have been pretty much the last thing on my list of priorities.

Why people even bother chatting during a race is beyond me.

BTW. Agree with everthing you said, NotAnIllusion, but some observations about the first few points: If you're going to overtake someone in a corner, doing it on the inside, off the ideal line, has got to be the safest way. If they lose control, centrifugal force keeps them from wiping you out. Its annoying, but sometimes it has to happen. So isn't it best that they hold their line?

Actually, your post was a little bit difficult to read and I think this is in fact what you were saying?

A problem I often find with blue flags is they come too early. I don't know if it depends on the speed of the cars, but sometimes I get a blue flag from a car I can barely see in my mirrors at the other end of a straight. In this case I keep my rhythm until the lapper comes close enough to think about passing me (maybe 10 cars length or so), but sometimes it may take him 2 or 3 laps to get there.

It's not like I'm blocking or even slowing them down, which I'm always very careful to avoid (and I've never got any complaint), but knowing the "three flags/three turns" rule, it just doesn't feel right. Besides, the constant reminder forces me to keep watching the lapper's progression in my mirrors, which doesn't help my own race when it lasts for 3 laps.

So am I the only one to think that LFS's blue flags are sometimes raised too early?

I sometimes have that feeling too. Perhaps blue flags are calculated on distance and not on times, therefore you sometimes have a "slingshot" blue flag, or you have the feeling they are issued too early. I really don't know.

As a side note, Parappa is thinking about what NotAnIllusion and nihil said. "Don't let the fire rush to your head", said an old song.

Nope, they depend on speed... On a long straight, you can get a blue flag, but as soon as he brakes for the corner, the blue flag dissappears only to appear seconds later when both are at speed again...