After taking another look at the videos, i have to admit that i was wrong

Now at least i have 2 great videos here

But here's something strange, some websites like motorsports.com (or whatever it is called) make references to sequential manual gearboxes in the McLarens.

Odd

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation

• Open wheel cars - sequential
  
• GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
  
• Others - H

Where do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

I will be interesting to see the performance gains from the sequential in the GTRs over H. That said I will stick with my H as its just more fun

Quote from Woz :

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation

• Open wheel cars - sequential
  
• GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
  
• Others - H

Where do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

UFR and XFR real names are UF-1000 GTR and XF GTR. They are GTR cars.

Quote from Tomi :

UFR and XFR real names are UF-1000 GTR and XF GTR. They are GTR cars.

They are NOT the same class of car though are they

Hello

This is my first post here and I hope it will be usefull !
I will post my feedback about the new simulated gearbox in the X30 patch (I hope it is the right place for that).

I don't know well F1 history about gearbox compared to other people here but I'm mechanical engineer with a really good knowledge about different types of gearbox and how it works and react.

There's 2 big types of gearbox described below and it is not sequential gearbox and H-patter ones ! (in fact We can also consider gearbox with spur gears and helical gears that have a really different design and result, but it will not change anything on a sim)

- Synchro engagement gearbox (most of the time with helical gears but not necessarily)
With this sort of gearbox, any gearchange will need necessarily the help of the clutch (except with a perfect synchronism of the speed of the engine and the primary gearbox shaft with a low movement of the lever and a small engine speed, but completely unusable in race condition)

This sort of gearbox is used on every road car (except perhaps some rare "supercars") including recent "sequential" road car gearbox (for example Alfa-Romeo selespeed).
It is not used on motorcycle because the low engine inertia and vehicule inertia makes it useless.


- Dog engagement gearbox (most of the time with spur gears but not necessarily)
It is used on motorcycle and on race car. it can be in h-pattern or sequential.
With this type of gearbox, you can do a gearchange without the help of the clutch if the difference of speed beetween primary gearbox shaft and engine is not too important. If the difference of the speed is too important, sometimes the gear will not engage and if it engage, you will make damage to the gearbox and transmissions. Some drivers destruct quickly these components, other are more gentle...

According to that, it is easily to upshift than to downshift (because the engine will deacrease rpm easier than increasing).
Race gearbox need to put a throttle input to help downshifting and to lift a bit the throttle when upshifting. (the new BMW FB02 is well simulated for upshifting but I found the downshifting too easy, but perhaps the low inetia of the car helps. Scawen having tried this car, I think downshifting works like that on this car, but I'm sceptic ?)

On some "rare" race cars (WRC, F1, ...), the throttle is electronically controlled on downshifting permitting to engage the gear without clutch or a blow of throttle.
And on some more common race cars (generally cars with sequential gearbox), the ignition is cut when upshifting permitting also to engage it easily.


In conclusion :
- I think upshifting with sequential gearbox cars (sequential on race car is every time "dog engagement gearbox") is well simulated in LFS X30, not downshifting.
- Road cars must use synchro gearbox with use of clutch at every shifting.
- For the UF/XF GTR, I think the best is using a dog gearbox with H-pattern.

I hope it will be usefull and Scawen have time to read this long post, I'm avalaible for any question about that (or anything else about racecar design, I've a good knowledge about that)...

PS : excuse me for my English...

Well understood here.

A dog engagement H-pattern box would be mighty interesting on the UF/XF GTR as you say.

Quote from Woz :

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation

• Open wheel cars - sequential
  
• GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
  
• Others - H

Where do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

I will be interesting to see the performance gains from the sequential in the GTRs over H. That said I will stick with my H as its just more fun

Whil this efect DFP users like mee self?

im so confused

i hope this helps

help me

???

Quote from i_MAXIBON :

im so confusing

Yes, you are.

Quote from rueda :

- Dog engagement gearbox It is used on motorcycle and on race car. /.../ Race gearbox need to put a throttle input to help downshifting and to lift a bit the throttle when upshifting.

Great post! Got me to ask some questions:

You don't use the clutch when shifting a motorbike?

When shifting a race car with sequential dogbox, if the throttle isn't applied correctly do you get stuck in neutral between gears or is the "old" gear still engaged?

You can shift any car without a clutch. Including bikes.

In the car sequential dogbox, you will be in neutral if you do it wrong, and the dogs will make nasty crunching sounds - I have videos to prove it (when I stuffed up a few shifts at Silverstone).

I thought that according to ruedas post motorbikes has gearboxes that was meant to be shifted without clutch (dogbox) and road cars has not (allthough it's possible but not in any race conditions)


Being stuck in neutral would be a nice addition to lfs gear physics. Would make correct shifting alot more important!

Quote from Bob Smith :

???

What don't you understand ?
Perhaps you don't seen my post ? (last of the 1st page)

Quote from SFL :

Great post! Got me to ask some questions:

You don't use the clutch when shifting a motorbike?

When shifting a race car with sequential dogbox, if the throttle isn't applied correctly do you get stuck in neutral between gears or is the "old" gear still engaged?

On a motorbike, you can use gearbox without clutch. Myself, on my 600 CBR, I use the clutch only to start, to pass from 1st to 2nd and to downshift (sometimes I don't use clutch to downshift). On a racetrack, I never use the clutch except to downshift from 2nd to 1st and in somme difficult track parts.

On a race sequential car, like I've said, I you don't shift correctly, sometimes, the gear pass (with a "bad shock" on the transmissions), sometimes the gear won't pass, sometimes you will hurt the gearbox more or less. It is possible to be in neutral (beetween 2 gears), depending on how the gearbox design is, but it is really rare.
In fact, if the difference of speed is too high the gear won't pass (or will make a lot of damages) and if the difference of speed is "just high" the gear will pass with a "bad shock"...

Having tested the gear changing (got my G25 Today. YAY!), I have a suggestion: If you switch the G25 H-Sequential-Mode, the buttons are not the same as shift up and down, but as gear one and two. Thus, it renders the sequential stick useless.
So, why not make the sequential gearboxes also contollable via gear one and two? That would be a simple way to not break the functionality of the G25 and would allow us to drive the FBM with a stick instead of the paddles (which also seems more appropriate for the FOX and the sequential GTRs)

Quote from Woz :

Where do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).

Quote from ColeusRattus :

...

You might want to write yourself some LFS scripts that set up the correct shifttype and button assignment per car (see here for a little starting help).

Quote from ColeusRattus :

Having tested the gear changing (got my G25 Today. YAY!), I have a suggestion: If you switch the G25 H-Sequential-Mode, the buttons are not the same as shift up and down, but as gear one and two. Thus, it renders the sequential stick useless.
So, why not make the sequential gearboxes also contollable via gear one and two? That would be a simple way to not break the functionality of the G25 and would allow us to drive the FBM with a stick instead of the paddles (which also seems more appropriate for the FOX and the sequential GTRs)

Just assign the stick to shift_up and shift_down again with a script, when you load the FBM. I drive it with the stick.

The FOX is based on a formulas Renault, and those have paddles IIRC, so I drive with them in the FOX...

Edit: Preemted!

I know that I can do that. It shouldn't be too difficult to do for scawen to be standard though.

Quote from duke_toaster :

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).

Yes, there's a lot of sequential in nowadays race cars, I know well the clio cup, they use a Sadev St90-14 gearbox with an ignition cut for upshift.
Anyway, (an it is only my own opinion), I prefer to get h-pattern dogbox for UFR and XFR to get more diversity in LFS.

Quote from duke_toaster :

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).

There's no reason why they'd have to have sequentials, most racing Minis will not be using sequential gearboxes and there's no reason why you can't race without a sequential and for a variety of reasons a lot of real cars don't, LFS has a lot more freedom so we don't have to worry about being competitive because the cars can be made more equal, and a lot of people want to drive an H-gate anyway. I know one of the main grounds for keeping sequential gearboxes out of club single seaters, and equally limiting to 4 rather than 5 ratio 'boxes was that is what drivers want to drive, not just cost.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

I know that I can do that. It shouldn't be too difficult to do for scawen to be standard though.

Could be, but not everyone wants their controls set up the same way I think.

Hi Scawen, & all,

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not, I didn't see any threads specifically asking this question, so sorry if it has been done to death... and feel free to move this to the proper thread if needed... but:

Could we please have the option of an auto clutch as before? The way the gearboxes behave right now in X30, especially cars like the MRT and the new BMW, is really awkward IMHO. I have a Logitech Momo wheel, and none of the buttons are really in reach to use as a clutch button, and I can't use my keyboard.. it's just not practical to reach over the wheel to hit a key to shift gears .

85% of the time I can get the gears to change if I get off the gas, and maybe I just need more practice... but at times it can really be awkward trying to get the next gear, where if I had a real pedal I would have changed up or down 2 gears in the time it took me to find one.

The cars with simulated sequential boxes seem to work fine as you'd expect, since no clutch is needed in real life, but for those of us without a 3rd pedal to press, it's a real drag. If you're going to remove the auto clutch, you might as well take out the auto transmission option altogether and force everyone to use a manual trans.. there's a point at which you have to sacrifice some realism to allow for the limitations of the controllers available, ie without a clutch. IMHO.

Other than that, I love the update -- the game seems to look a lot more realistic, although I can't place quite why... and it's nice to have some AI drivers to practice against again, not to mention everything else I haven't even found yet

Above all, thanks devs for the continual improvements.. I've been addicted to LFS since 0.2N came out (I think it was) and it continues to be the best sim out there as far as I am concerned!

Quote from Merc68k :

Could we please have the option of an auto clutch as before?

Check options -> driver... auto clutch has not been removed


.

Ah, but that's only for the sequential gearbox cars... my problem is with the cars that would have an H-pattern shifter in real life -- I have only paddles with my wheel and no easy way to activate the clutch to shift gears. Unless I could map the shifter paddles to also do the clutch pedal at the same time...