I've been racing on non-league type servers a lot lately and I've noticed something seems to cause the majority of accidents. People not giving any racing room.

To explain what I mean here is an example. Think about the start of Blackwood GP. You've got the tight right T1 followed by the slight S-bend leading onto the straight which you should be taking flat in most circumstances. I say MOST CIRCUMSTANCES because this is what I'm referring to.

If you are driving through that part of the track in space then you take it flat and there really is only one line through there i.e. only space for one car. If you are between two other cars but there is a bit of space you can still take it flat but be prepared to lift if the guy in front gets it wrong.

However, if it's lap 1 and you are mid pack you must take a different approach through there. If there is someone alongside you going into the S then you must give each other room. That way you both get through safely side by side (which is totally cool anyway) and are able to fight it out down the straight.

But what I've noticed is this. Most people, if they are alongside another car through there, refuse to lift and turn in on the car anyway, ignoring their presence completely. This causes both drivers to spin off and usually causes mayhem behind. I'm suspicious that a lot of people never use look left and right buttons.

The exact same situation often happens at the esses after the long straight. I often get alongside people (and I mean right alongside) on the inside after the first right after the straight so I actually have the racing line. It doesn't seem to stop people turning in on me anyway as if I wasn't there.

If these people just turned in normally but allowed a cars width of space between them and the apex, everyone’s racing experiences would be better and their race results would be much improved because they would have far less accidents

Comments please.

I totally agree.

Will never happen on public servers.

Dan,

It's called ignorance.

Some people are not even checking if there is someone on their side. They just turn in.

it's about mentality not private or public servers.
the race ethic says when two players are side by side on a corner each one of them should give enough space.

i've said should because i don't if it's a must or a should.

Quote from fujiwara :

it's about mentality not private or public servers.

Thats just the thing, the mentality of private and public servers is different,

The problem is with anonymous racing is there is no come back, people can, and will drive how they want, without regard for "rules" or what is right or wrong, its just the way it is with public servers, and it will never ever change.

Some people don't want to be educated, and just want to drive how they want too, sad but true.

Dan,

Quote from danowat :

Thats just the thing, the mentality of private and public servers is different,

The problem is with anonymous racing is there is no come back, people can, and will drive how they want, without regard for "rules" or what is right or wrong, its just the way it is with public servers, and it will never ever change.

Some people don't want to be educated, and just want to drive how they want too, sad but true.

Dan,

But we can try eh mate

Quote from Hyperactive :

Some people are not even checking if there is someone on their side. They just turn in.

And some people try to overtake in first chance, whether possible or not.

Racing room gives more time to react to other's mistake and therefore grant a pass or clearance.

I agree, it's called Racecraft.

Someone should run a server where inSim pits you and the other car instantly on contact - it must be possible, as the training sets can detect contact with another car and fail you for it. That would ensure a good clean race all the way through.

The problem with sim racing is - there's no cost to car damage, and as such no reason for people to stop "approaching the limits of grip" from the far side of the equation! Or shunting other people off the road, Most of the races I place well in are not because I'm fast (I've got an awful racing wheel with broken force feedback, I can race IRL), but because I get through all the corners without making contact, and other people get smashed off the track all around me. I think it comes from owning a motorbike, where you're used to being quick to avoid traffic wandering into your path 100% of the time.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

But we can try eh mate

We can, but they can't sort it out IRL

Dan,

Well, you're right. Do it 75% of time. You know it's not normal to look left or right after every 2 or 3 seconds.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's just five-lap-race mentality. You can tell people that the race isn't won at T1 all you like, but in a five lap race it actually is most of the time. Anyone left behind won't want to spend a lap putting a pass on someone because there's only five laps total, so they just barge.

Longer public races FTW.

Definately you're right - short races contribute to this problem. But at Blackwood there are 3 really good passing oppotunities and 2 that are possible if you're brave. So it's well possible to pass 3 or 4 cars a lap if you have the speed.

z3r0c00l made some good points about the cost of damage. I agree fully but I personally see the cost of contact not as damage to the car, but instead as damage to my laptime. So it really is in every drivers interest to avoid contact even if we don't have to pay for the damage.

There was also a point earlier about the anonymity of open server racing. But you know I personally don't feel anonymous. People know my name and every racer in LFS has some kind of reputation, good or bad, to uphold.

yeah... people sometimes people get desperate and attempt stupid maneuvers. if you ride 1meter behind somone(in gtr class) into turn one of blackwoood... dont be suprized when you ram them in the rear.

its becoming more and more rare... but i see people go for impossible passes.

i've also experienced lots of dangerous blocking... but most of the time my reflexes and connection are fast enough for me to react... i just smile, swerve and pass.

Yep I see this as well, hotlapping is much easier but far less rewarding than racing, but some take the easy route and go around the track as if there's no one else there.

Also noticing more and more that these poor souls become deaf and dumb as well as blind when asked about there heroic manouver.

Its like if they say nothing they did nothing wrong, keep asking untill they thet get the power of speech back is the best way to help

John

Quote from CSU1 :

It's called ignorance.

He stated the problem....

Quote from danowat :

Will never happen on public servers.

And he stated the solution.

I know several of you who talk this same topic every now and then. I know you from racing in the servers and I know the others from the forum here. This topic is not new, nor is it a problem for the majority of the active forum users. Ignorance of racing is a problem coming from those who don't come here or listen. I'm pretty confident I could race with any of you side by side without incident because you are all knowledgable on how to race side by side. Most here have also been racing LFS for a long time in both public, private, and leagues. The ignorant who are the problem would do the same thing (the discussed topic) in any of those arenas, at least until they either learn very quickly or get booted from the private/league server.

I'm all up for topics and discussions like this as it is very important. The problem is that the ones who need to be reading this, aren't here.

PitSpotter needs to be built into LFS... using it makes it easy to always give room for other people, and I find it actually works much faster than trying to look around yourself. And if people who drive badly heard it, they might thing about what they're doing

If you are racing someone who won't give you room, just deal with it. Use that fact to your advantage.

I'd suspect that anyone who posts in this thread understands the need for giving room, and so are probably above average racers (not that the LFS average is very high, but you get the point). If they squeeze you, then simple feint moves in braking zones or put yourself in places that will severely compromise him - you, with foresight, will be less affected, and then get past.

There is nothing WE can do about racing/driving standards. But we don't need to complain if we use THEIR deficencies to OUR advantage.

OT: I want to race Kev again soon - when do you tend to go online mate?

Edit: No pitspotter does not NEED to be built in. It is not realistic except in ovals (where the drivers lack the IQ to look in their mirrors or use their memories). I have never, and will never use anything like pitspotter, and I race just fine. Use your mirrors - they tell you EVERYTHING you need to know. You can know exactly, to within 0.25m where any car is at any time in LFS.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

But we can try eh mate

It's great that you want to affect things, but most of the players on public servers aren't aware of existence of these forums. And those who are, most likely give you that room.

:blank:

Quote from frokki :

It's great that you want to affect things, but most of the players on public servers aren't aware of existence of these forums. And those who are, most likely give you that room.

:blank:

Point understood. And it is true ofcourse. I 100% agree.

But I'm one of those types that never gives up. If I were to follow that logic I would never give anyone any advice at all. These forums would be pretty empty if everyone had that attitude.

speaking as a person who has watched enough racing on TV to be familiar with all the rules and etiquette, is a good driver IRL (over 300,000km without a wreck, and no, i don't drive like a granny), but is relatively new to sim racing, i'd like to point out that it still takes some time and effort to learn how to control the car and pay attention to other racers on the track at the same time. my first few times out on the track i'm sure i pissed some people off with my dangerous moves, but it's starting to come together now.

i think that patience and polite words on the part of the more experienced drivers can help a lot, but when they get frustrated and start barking at the noobs for making mistakes, it just flusters them and doesn't help them to become better drivers.

Quote from evilgeek :

speaking as a person who has watched enough racing on TV to be familiar with all the rules and etiquette, is a good driver IRL (over 300,000km without a wreck, and no, i don't drive like a granny), but is relatively new to sim racing, i'd like to point out that it still takes some time and effort to learn how to control the car and pay attention to other racers on the track at the same time. my first few times out on the track i'm sure i pissed some people off with my dangerous moves, but it's starting to come together now.

i think that patience and polite words on the part of the more experienced drivers can help a lot, but when they get frustrated and start barking at the noobs for making mistakes, it just flusters them and doesn't help them to become better drivers.

I'm not bothered about those who are genuinely trying and are new and struggling. That's fine, I give them extra room and they can be passed easily (usually when they crash). It's more those who have clearly spent some time playing LFS i.e. they are in the low 1:09s BLGP FOX, but still don't give room.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I'm not bothered about those who are genuinely trying and are new and struggling. That's fine, I give them extra room and they can be passed easily (usually when they crash). It's more those who have clearly spent some time playing LFS i.e. they are in the low 1:09s BLGP FOX, but still don't give room.

i guess they are a little more difficult to deal with, since they can use their lap times as a justification for their dangerous tactics. "i'm fast, so don't tell me what to do," etc. it's a tough one...

Quote from evilgeek :

i guess they are a little more difficult to deal with, since they can use their lap times as a justification for their dangerous tactics. "i'm fast, so don't tell me what to do," etc. it's a tough one...

That may be right. I often think "hmm - hotlapper"

Not that all hotlappers are the same.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Someone should run a server where inSim pits you and the other car instantly on contact - it must be possible, as the training sets can detect contact with another car and fail you for it.

Handling of car positions in multiplayer is much harder then handling them locally, currently you'd need to guesstimate contact by comparing distance, heading, etc, there is no packet for "contact". Even with a very good formula, the maximum settings of 6 pps as i understand it means the remote cars are in their correct positions during only 6% of physics updates, meaning there are 94 updates where positions are interpolated more or less accurately. Add lag issues and it's not a very tempting project.