LX4,XRT,RB4 & FXO are same grage, but FXO is too fast,this let all people use FXO

Posted infinate times before.

yea~ i agree with u~
all WRs of FXO are faster than the other three cars by over 1 sec or even 2 secsillepall
for XRTers like me, its quite depressed when i see some FXOs passed me easily, and then leave me in dust, even i have been driven many laps within 1 sec of the WR

It's not new news, but I wont chastise you for that today because as a TBO league organiser I am so in need of this car being ballanced that i'll +1 it all over again .

What's the point in balancig cars now, when the physics engine will probably change later on, and then the cars will be unbalanced again? illepall

Quote from dev :

What's the point in balancig cars now, when the physics engine will probably change later on, and then the cars will be unbalanced again? illepall

so before S3, we just have to drive completly unbalanced car illepall ....good point

Quote from Flotch :

so before S3, we just have to drive completly unbalanced car illepall ....good point

I seriously doubt no changes will be made by S3...

I agree the TBO class DEPERATELY needs balancing, though this has been mentioned countless times before. Doesn't make it less deserving of mention though.

Though if it were up to me, I'll fix the turbo modelling and RB4/XR GTT powerband issue before attempting to slow the FXO. Just to try to finalize the physics before anything drastic is done to slow the FXO. Besides, the aero in LFS is still in the oversimplified half done stage. Last time I checked, there's at least 1 sim on sale that models pitch and ride height induced aero effects. CFD is a bit too much to ask for without supercomputers, but many RL aero effects are certainly possible to model and implement to a very good approximation in REAL TIME. BTW, it's about time all cars get their own unique aero.

Point is, lets make RB4 and XR GTT as good and fast as they should be before actually slowing the FXO down. BTW, as good as the suspension modelling is, there are just 2 things left to model before it's practically as perfect as it could be: dynamic toe and solid axles

Actually there's one simple way to slow the FXO down for the sake of fair competition. Just add 1 or 2 passengers to all FXOs. Enforce the rule strictly to make sure no one experieces the "Unbeatable FXO" syndrome.

Quote from dev :

I seriously doubt no changes will be made by S3...

so (again) should we still have to drive a completly unbalanced class of cars ? 'cause S3 will be out in several years from now...

I guess modifying the balancing with S2 final will make more sense, specially because the WRs should be reset then aswell (at least it was said when the alpha was released).
The XFG showed that modifying a car's parameters doesnt always make sense, because now it's back to the original hp.

To use Scawens own words against him (with a slight tweek):

LFS must have gameplay, it is not a screenshot generator.

Good idea to post this again. The balancing issues should be raised about 3 times a day until the devs really do something about it.

Vain

For the time being, what we should really focus on is getting all the physics right before slowing the FXO down. An overcompenstaed FWD such as the FXO is only HALF the problem. The other real half problem lies in the fact that the other 2 cars are still a bit too unrealistically slow and "piggy".

Until at least the tirbo modelling and RB4/XR GTT powerband issues are sloved, the best solution we can realistically hope for is to enforce a ballast rule on the FXO to ensure good racing. The good news is that the TBO cars cand each take 4 extra passengers, so one could simply do a series of test runs to discover the optimal ballast to use for the FXO. I reckon that FXOs should only be allowed to race with at LEAST 1 passenger ATM. It's an imperfect solution, but until the physics are all close to completion, it's the best band-aid we have.

I share your sentiments, Becky Rose and Flotch, but FTM, we could at least enforce some limited level of parity by regulating minimum ballasts for FXOs used for proper racing. BTW, nice RB4 WR, Flotch! Nice Driving.

You need two passengers for the FXO at the moment, but the problem I have is that the STCC is a broadcast series and passengers in the car would just be rediculous - imagine trying to explain to viewers that the FXO's are crammed full of passengers because the sim developers cocked up the performance of the FXO a few years ago and wont fix the problem, it just isn't feasable.

I'd love ballast, i've asked for it, i'd also love an extra 40kg or so weight and narrower tyres on the FXO.

I dont care as much about realistic turbo modelling or whatever because that isn't spoiling gameplay, only realism and there's lots of other issues there anyway, and LFS is a game not a screenshot generator.

Quote from ORION :

I guess modifying the balancing with S2 final will make more sense, specially because the WRs should be reset then aswell (at least it was said when the alpha was released).
The XFG showed that modifying a car's parameters doesnt always make sense, because now it's back to the original hp.

What is so wrong with the idea that you adjust some car parametres when the patch changes LFS? WRs get reset anyways. After all, it may even get worse in next patch. S2 final is still long away and there is no good reason why we should wait until we're there.

+1

(keep 'em coming )

Actually, nothing. Both the RB4 and XR GTT could use just a few extra horses. Say 360Nm and 250hp for RB4 for starters. Since turbo modelling isn't set to improve soon as far as we can know, the least that can be done is to crank up the power and torque of the XR GTT. And improve the tires of both the RB4 and XR GTT so they actually stand a chance against the FXO at the corners.

Or, we can have a ballast system as a band aid for the current situation, but then the XR GTT and RB4 are already a bit slow for what they are. ATM, anything is better than pure FXO domination. I know how bad it looks to have passengers in all FXOs in a race, but if that is required to achieve parity, so be it. At least it'll give them SOME incentive to fix up the TBO class.

The RB4 and XRT are fine as they are. It's just the FXO that's out of scale.

Why make things complex? 80kg for the FXO and the matter is solved. Period.

Vain

The FXO in the right hands is faster, until you get to off road rally courses such as FE etc and i do believe the RB4 is better

Quote from Vain :

The RB4 and XRT are fine as they are. It's just the FXO that's out of scale.

Why make things complex? 80kg for the FXO and the matter is solved. Period.

Vain

no, a FWD should be lighter than a RWD or AWD. The trouble is coming from the too wide tires compare to the 2 others.

There's the proper way to do it, then there's the band aid method. Ideally, all tubo modelling and powerband issues should be solved first, then we tweak around with tire width and thus grip to keep things on line.

Or we could simply narrow the tire of the FXO slightly and maybe add just a tad more weight, but never unitil it gets too close or exceeds the weight of the other 2 TBO cars. This would be a sort of ok band aid solution until all the relevant turbo behavior and powerband issues are solved. At least we'll have some parity in the FXO class until all the vital issues with the physics are solved, allowing LFS to more realistically depict the strengths and weaknesses of each drivetrain.

As for the RB4 dominance on the rallycross stages, that's how it's supposed to be IRL anyway, so as a sim, LFS must be no different. Besides, the other 2 cars would realistically and practically have no real business running off-road anyway.

For now, I agree with Flotch's suggestion of narrowing the FXO's tires slightly to reduce the grip slightly AND introduce some front tire wear issues RL FWD cars face. It attenuates the FXO dominance issue without relying on arbritrary addition of weight.

The discussion about the weight of the FXO is arbitary because it assumes all other things are equal, they aren't. There should be a few kilo's just for those monster truck tyres the ruddy thing has for a start...

Actually, forged wheels used for racing are remarkably lightweight IRL and performance tires aren't THAT heavy either, though they shuld be heavier than the tires of the other 2 TBO cars.

Anyway, even if the FXO saves 5 kilos with a smaller wheel and ture package, the dominant determinant for a car's performance is its tires. Overall, it'll suffer from slower acceleration (classic FWD traction issue), lower cornering speeds (less ultimate grip), poorer braking and classic FWD front tire wear issues. A great way to bring RL FWD problems into perspective, FWD problems the FXO currently lacks. The front tire wear would certainly even things out a bit for the longer races.

I would like to agree with you, but I think the difference between the FXO wheels and the XRT wheels is just too big!

Quote from Jamexing :

Actually, nothing. Both the RB4 and XR GTT could use just a few extra horses. Say 360Nm and 250hp for RB4 for starters. Since turbo modelling isn't set to improve soon as far as we can know, the least that can be done is to crank up the power and torque of the XR GTT. And improve the tires of both the RB4 and XR GTT so they actually stand a chance against the FXO at the corners.

Classic problem with computer simulations/modding, everyone shoves too much power on and put extra grip (GTR1 > GTR2 ). The current XRT/RB4/FXO so not need more grip or power. If someone can get the FXO with a free diff to beat the XRT with an LSD then fair enough there is a balancing problem, if not then the issue is realated to the unrealistic (to circuit racing at Group N and road based levels) locked differentials.

Not to mention FXO vs RB4 wheels. The RB4 wheel/tire sizes are 215/45/16 vs 240/40/16 of the FXO. No wonder the FXO corners as if it's running slicks.

That's why we need to speed up the other 2 cars a bit too, since they are just a bit too slow for what they are. But since powerbands don't seem to be getting more realistic very soon, just chop the FXO's tires down to RB4 size and grip levels for the time being. Then the FXOs would be forced to slow down just to avoid melting the front tires in 2-3 laps.