But the problem with preheated tyres is that I (and a lot of others as I see from spr's) very often start the lap with lower than ideal tyre temperature and finish it with overheated tyres as a result of low pressure (mainly with faster cars, GTR's and BF1 for example). And usually I have to warm one side of the tyres better than the other (or rear tyres differently from front tyres) before starting the hotlap.

So we could end up seeing hotlappers waiting minutes for the tyres to cool down which would be worse than the current situation . And I think that the option to adjust the temperature of every part of all the tyres would be extremely unreal.

I agree with those who say starting from the pits would mean unnecessary minutes driving round the circuit.

So my conclusion is the current hotlap system is good and shouldn't be changed

duh, there would be an option to set a temperature, not that u have to, u would still be able to start with cold tires.

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

duh, there would be an option to set a temperature, not that u have to, u would still be able to start with cold tires.

And in real life you can say that you want the tyres to be 70 degrees celsius? Maybe on a BF1 but not on a GTI...
And IMO hotplapping system doesn't have any big problem that should be addressed now and time should be spent on more important developments (for example normal replay system or real tyre changing strategy).

do u have a reset button in real life? duh.....
of course its a sim, but why not have lil helpers to make life easier?
the point of the game - having fun - warming up ur tires 5 mins for a 2 min lap (maybe 25 times until u get ur / the time u want) - no fun.

Quote from csimpok :

And IMO hotplapping system doesn't have any big problem that should be addressed now and time should be spent on more important developments (for example normal replay system or real tyre changing strategy).

guess who made this thread?

Quote from csimpok :

And in real life you can say that you want the tyres to be 70 degrees celsius? Maybe on a BF1 but not on a GTI...

considering the tyres already start pre-warmed, I don't understand this argument? If you were arguing for the tyres to start at ambient temperature on the road cars in all situations I would agree with you - but we would also need better temp vs grip modelling I *think*. Currently the tyres start pre-warmed - It'd be a funny prewarming system that you couldn't specify a rough temperature to get the tyres to I believe.

Quote from '[RCG :

Boosted;211002]guess who made this thread?

"Spinoff : Future hotlapping start position"

I guess Scawen just wanted to see our opinions about it before he makes the decision.

i think every "spinoff thread" was actually inside this thread TEST Patch U20 (compatible with U). So every suggestion or simular interesting stuff is getting a spinoff-thread where it belongs to.

Correct me if im wrong.

yea, but i guess he wouldnt make if it was a stupid (useless) improvement / suggestion.
anyway, back to topic!

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

yea, but i guess he wouldnt make if it was a stupid (useless) improvement / suggestion.
anyway, back to topic!

as i allready said yes

me votes to ban language barriers (press 1)

Quote from csimpok :

But the problem with preheated tyres is that I (and a lot of others as I see from spr's) very often start the lap with lower than ideal tyre temperature and finish it with overheated tyres as a result of low pressure (mainly with faster cars, GTR's and BF1 for example). And usually I have to warm one side of the tyres better than the other (or rear tyres differently from front tyres) before starting the hotlap.

So we could end up seeing hotlappers waiting minutes for the tyres to cool down which would be worse than the current situation . And I think that the option to adjust the temperature of every part of all the tyres would be extremely unreal.

I agree with those who say starting from the pits would mean unnecessary minutes driving round the circuit.

So my conclusion is the current hotlap system is good and shouldn't be changed

It would be a lot easier to have pre-heated tires to the T° of your choice (only one for all the tires I agree...), and too, to have the option to choose the amount of rubber you want...Actually R2 tires are endurance tires , not really qualifying tires .
IMO hotlapping should simply allows you to do a (the) very fast lap, as unrealistic it seems to be to some people, I think it would be funnnier than it is now with all the acrobatic figures needed or the mini-endurance done by some player to reduce the amount of rubber...

correct me if im wrong but i cant remember that i have lost rubber (skidmarks is no rubber right now correct?) from the tires in this or any version of lfs. I may missunderstand that well anyway Attahorse made a good point there, hotlapping is not, whos the best in tire heating but who can do the best lap on the given combo. That acrobatic stuff makes no sence at all and the way some (me2) heating the tires is unrealistic atm (somehow/ -times) and if you would loose rubber as well, the current tire physics would not provide a good basic for hotlapping imho.

"Actually R2 tires are endurance tires"

im gone try that

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be

Quote from Flotch :

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be

ok after all this time in lfs i have never noticed that youre really loosing rubber. Never compared that like you did, sorry mate and thanks alot for that info And i think i need to say, lfs do have a good tire physic then

Quote from csimpok :

And I think that the option to adjust the temperature of every part of all the tyres would be extremely unreal.

Every part of the tyre yes, but what about a setup option to set the pre-heating temperature of each tyre? I think this option would help hotlappers as well as being realistic - I'm pretty sure that you can set the temperature of the tyre heaters in reallife as well.

Quote from Flotch :

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be

...therefore part worn tyres should be implemented to be able to get the best from the tyres nearly right away, rather than running 20 laps to reduce the amount of rubber.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1125

Just rename Hotlapping to 'Single Lap Qualifying', start from the pits with heated tyres pretty much as now (I like the idea of heating the tyres to independent temps, but remember that is sarface temperature, not the all important core temperature which will be much lower - even F1 tyre warmers on single make 'hard' tyres can't get them to operating temperature), and make a hotlap a two lap affair with an outlap and a flying lap. On the long courses (e.g. 10 miles or more) have the timing start from the pitlane exit, e.g. a bit a like the Nurburgring.

It's already been said that hotlapping isn't realistic because there is no such thing in real life. So remove it and make it more realistic in essence, along with realistic details. Then no one can argue

By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself. If we started 1/4 mile from the start with perfect tyres I think it would lose a lot of it's mysticism.

Quote from tristancliffe :

By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself. If we started 1/4 mile from the start with perfect tyres I think it would lose a lot of it's mysticism.

Couldnt agree more

OnTopic: starting from the pits is also the thing that just eats a lot of time. It's ok for any short tracks, but, as it was said before, UF1@AS5 will the the combo for patient racers.
It is ok to start quali from the pits, because this kind of start is more realistic. Just because quali is the thing from real life. But hotlapping is not real.

@tristancliffe: By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself - By the way, you have 3(three!) hotlaps uploaded. But guys who have 20-50-100 hotlaps DO have this skill of contolling tyre temp. And I don't think they like it, because they wasted a lot of time on practicing this skill.

The thing I want to see is equalling the chances of all the drivers. If you choose tyre temp, you disable the advantage of races who is more patient and/or has more free time to spend on lfs. And the only thing that matters in this case - speed. You are faster means you get better lap. Nothing to add or discuss.
I see one more way to solve this problem: making Hotlap just "one lap single race". No matter what the tyre temp is, because all races are in same conditions, and, again, the only thing that matters in this case - speed. This will kill a lot of hotlapping's beauty but make this competition fair.
But if we want to see hotlapping attractive as before and completely fair, selecting tyre temp is perfect decision. And there will be no nesessity to change hotlapping start position in this case.

I have three. Yup, so what? I don't enjoy hotlapping, I'd much rather be racing. You've only done about 30 laps online, so you're the opposite. Does that matter? No, other people are different. I just don't want (not for me, but for the others, and my respect for them) hotlapping to become a fully configured thing, so you start with everything perfect. It just wouldn't work like that in real life.

I know realism isn't totally obtainable, otherwise we'd spend 100 hours working on the car for every hour we drive, but having configurable tyre temps just to make the whole process easier/quicker I personally think would spoil it.

Quote from AttaHorse :

But guys who have 20-50-100 hotlaps DO have this skill of contolling tyre temp. And I don't think they like it, because they wasted a lot of time on practicing this skill.

I have 81 hotlaps, i like it, my vote goes to starting from pits with ambient temps. The useless skill i've wasted so much time practicing has actually been very useful in super pole or other short forms of qualifying.

I would be much more inclined to use the hotlap mode if a rolling start (top of 3rd gear or something) at the beginning of the last sector with warm tires (optimum minus a few degrees) was implemented. Maybe it could even include camber angles into calculating the tire temperature, i.e. if you use extreme cambers your outside edges will be a bit cooler. The next best choice I think would be a standing start at the last sector with warm tires.

By "best" I don't mean "closest to how this hotlapping might occur in reality," I mean, "most efficient means to make an attempt at driving the fastest clean lap that you can." There is a point where you should draw the line between realism and fun; tire-warming "acrobatics" are not fun. If I'm pushing for a few more hundredths and go over my limit and spin out, I think a just punishment would be to have to start my lap over -- not to waste another few minutes trying to warm my tires up and start over.

Quote from SparkyDave :

I have to agree with Sinbad on the added worth and (simulated) realism of starting HL from the pits.
I just dont see any dissadvantage to anyone, we would all be using the same system right? except it will take longer to complete an outlap then run a HL (time enough to heat tyres in a realistic way),so a few added minuites to the hours needed to HL all the combos anyway shouldnt upset anyone should it.

Suppose you're working on your nutter rank. You want to drive as fast as you can on as many different combos as you can. If you wanted to beat robnewman out of the top slot, you'd have to drive all 858 combos at a moderate speed. At the very least you'd have to drive this many outlaps, however more than likely you'd end up driving many times this number. All of the world records in the... um... in the world add up to 1384:49.89. If you drove only one outlap for every single combo at the world record time (which is not going to happen unless you're from outer space) you'd have just over 23 hours of completely wasted time. Imagine an entire week from sunup to sunup piddled away warming up tires. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to word this to sound as dramatic as I wanted (I guess that's why I'm not in advertising), but that seems pretty inefficient to me.

The way I understand it, hotlapping is a test of setting up your car and driving a clean lap as fast as you can, and I believe that a rolling start with warm tires would provide the best conditions and the most efficient means for a driver to do so.

Quote from Dumpy :

The way I understand it, hotlapping is a test of setting up your car and driving a clean lap as fast as you can, and I believe that a rolling start with warm tires would provide the best conditions and the most efficient means for a driver to do so.

exactly! i spend 60% of my time in hotlapping for developing setup purposes, what i need is to see by split times if a change is improving certain split or not...having to drive a whole lap before i can test it is a pure waste of time!
of course since i am playing lfs from some years, now i can measure/predict the split times most of the times with an accuracy of 0.05 sec, so i learned to see even in the last sector where hotlaps start, if a change of setup is improving or not, of course i test setups at default temp, warm/optimal temp and overheated temp to see if the setup is behaving how i want in all conditions or if it needs some tweak...what i don't understand is: in real life racers have the thing that bring tyres on temperature...why having it in lfs would be unrealistic? ...some people like to do useless laps and do averything by themself? let it be an option!

having hotlaps start from last sector with preheated tyres is NO advantage! only avoids a time waste!
so if purists want to do everything, let them drive from home to the circuit, wear their racing suit, the helmet, tell the pitcrew how to setup the car, wait the needed time for the pitcrew to make the setup changes, mount the tyres, wait for the "thermal thing" to heat up tyres, then enter the cockpit, lock the safety belts, turn up engine, exit from pits, make a useless lap and then start the hotlap that will end at T1!!!! then walk (30 minutes? more? ...who cares) to the pits, wait for the car to be repaired (if possible), then start all over again!

@ tristancliffe: i do most of online racing in demo, so it's out of stats
And my stats says Laps:792

I mean that warming tyres is a _skill_ for you, but it's a absolute _routine_ for me.

@filur: yes, that _routine_ helps in qualifying. But I want to see things that can help in qualifying in qualifying only. But now I have to do this in hotlap mode, which is not about qualifying. I think you would not be glad to see, that your lap is HLVC-invalid (meaning try another one) in RACE mode.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I know realism isn't totally obtainable, otherwise we'd spend 100 hours working on the car for every hour we drive, but having configurable tyre temps just to make the whole process easier/quicker I personally think would spoil it.

Why do you think it would be worse than arbitrarily preheated tyres??

Because you can't have arbitrarily preheated tyres in real life, and for me hotlapping isn't JUST about the one single quick lap, it's about the technique used to get the car into such a condition so that it can generate that lap time. Obviously if we all start with perfect cars I'm not going to suddenly beat all the WR holders, I'll be just a slow probably. But The outlap is part of the hotlap in my opinion, and that should be reflected in hotlapping. As it is we have a compromise of driving only the final sector, with semi-mostly-warm tyres. I'm live with that, but I'd still prefer the entire outlap to be driven myself. As I say, I'll live with the current version because some people are just hotlapping junkies, and clearly want it all to be done as quickly as possible so they can move on, and not worry about making mistakes (something else which further removes hotlapping even from LFS racing - the fear of making a mistake, and losing time or defaulting an entire race).

As always it's just my opinion, and I trust Scawen to come up with a good solution.