Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Maybe re-install drivers, and re-install LFS?

No luck.

Anybody else here use a G25?

Got latest version of LFS (Z) and Logitech drivers (Profiler 5.02.116). Every time I load the game I see "CreateEffect failed (1 axis) could not setup FF steering device" and the FF doesn't work in the game. Anybody seen this?,

*rofl* Two years later and this thread gets bumped.

Quote from Jamesisinthehouse12 :

Eric Tetz... you have done an AWESOME job but I just wanted to make the centre more like the G25

Dude, that looks freakin' awesome. I'm switching to that when I get home. How did you change the geometry of the center hub?

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I had a chance of testing the G25 today, i gotta say that the last version Eric, without a shine, looks most real..

Good, cause I'm done.

WoW 2.0 just came out, and I'm immersed in addon code now. Now driving for now. ^_^

Quote from Tweaker :

But the weird shading at the top cannot be removed somehow? It's odd it even showed up in your line test version.

That shading is a shadow; LFS puts it there.

Quote from scutella :

ok guys when i am downloadin files often they are coming up as RAR files but they need to be DDS files so my question is, how do you convert them to DDS files??

RAR is a compression format, like ZIP. The .dds files are inside.

Normally I would use ZIP, as more people are familiar with that, but lfs-database.com uses RAR files so I figured everyone here would be familiar.

Here are the same files, in a ZIP: G25WheelTexture.zip

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:56.

Quote from Tweaker :

How about put some dark shading on the bottom of the cap instead of on the metal bit of the wheel? That would solve the issue of not making it seem to float, but also give the cap better depth. Most of the dark shading is ON the cap, and not on the outside it seems.

All of the above is much easier said than done. The hub and spokes are separate geometry, but they use the same texture file. It's hard to get anything that goes just to the edge of that hub.

I made a grid, with colored lines at 5/10/50/100 pixel boundaries:



I then put it on the wheel. LFS uses the same texture file for both the central hub and the spokes, but it aplies different scaling and lighting to each!



Ugh. Anyway, that let me get accurate enough to put a small shadow on the edge of the hub. Using just a flat grey... it looks... flat gray.

So I took a new source photo to clone from and create patterns from, hoping that would automagically fix the look of it, but it didn't. It looked worse.

I darkened and desaturated it a bit, which helped, but it still doesn't look right:


A big part of the problem is that metal.. is just grey. What makes it look like metal is not it's base color, but it's reflective properties, the way it creates highlights. Without support for reflections in LFS, the only way to get those metallic highlights is build them into the texture, but I lack the art skill to do that by hand. I tried using a photograph, but since the shape of the G25 hub is not a decohedron, it's impossible to map directly to the LFS hub, and doing approximate mappings just makes the hub look bulbous.

Anyway, I'm done mucking with it for the moment. If somebody else wants to take a stab at it, you're welcome to my Photoshop file.

Quote from Tweaker :

That bottom lighting in the source photo is just because that is studio photography with multiple lights on the subject...

Yeah, I do bluescreen work at home. I've got lights everywhere.

Quote :

The same goes for the black bits, they aren't so dark, and that is why I think you should work on the saturation and levels of the center hub to make them look accurate. And maybe a small silver ring around the black logitech circle, because there is a bit of shiny metal in between the black part and the cap.

Yeah, the source photo doesn't show that ring at all.

Quote :

The drop shadow you had on previously was ok, though it was too big and too dark. Make the drop shadow/glow a lot thinner and not so dark.

It's kinda shitty either way, unfortunately. The problem is that the hub is not really circular, it's clearly a 12 sided polygon. If the drop shadow is too small, it only pokes between the corners. There's no way to make it tightly hug the sides of the hub (like the wheel appears in real life). Just having it there at all makes the blockiness of the hug more obvious. I think Boris' wheel works better without a shadow because the MOMO hub 'pops' a lot more (due to shape and lighting) and because the MOMO hub and spokes are both relatively dark.

I'll play around with the drop shadow settings and see how subtle I can get it.

Quote :

EDIT: Here is a better picture showing the color differences and even that little silver ring around the black spot --- http://tweakers.net/ext/f/4c35 ... 317281f9e2ef7d93/full.jpg

Well, I do have the wheel sitting on my desk. I can definitely see the gun metal grey and the silver ring (they aren't in the photo I used for the texture, at all), and that the color/contrast is off in my texture. Maybe I'll bust out my camera later at take my own source photo and mess around some more (if I can bring myself to burn any more time on this)

BTW: Is there a quicker way than changing tracks to get LFS to reload the wheel texture?

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Mon, 4 Dec 2006 07:22.

Quote from Tweaker :

Looks pretty dark. I'd rather have the center area saturated, but with the amount of contrast you have in the 2nd version.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote :

Oh and the red buttons are "flipped" The highlight is on the bottom of those buttons, as oppossed to it being on the top.

Good point. There's clearly bottom lighting in the source photo. I'll tone those lower highlights down a bit.

Actually, the source photo's kinda crappy in general. The center logo and bolts are not nearly as defined as I would like.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Yes, better now...
Just one more suggestion. You should turn off that drop shadow from the ring, it will look more real, something like on my momo...

Better?




BTW: Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's definitely improved the result. This image looks a lot better than the first.

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:01.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Very nice!
Maybe you could get that ring around logitech logo a bit better? Some higher res, it's kinda blurred now. But the leather is great..

Well, the central hub is all one texture, so I can't make some parts higher rez than others.

But now that you mention it, it looks like LFS is brightening that middle circle, washing it out.

I just darkened it. Better?



I updated the .dds files already.

Logitech 25 wheel texture. I'm not an artist, so take it for what it is.

I couldn't really duplicate the shape the hub and stuff because the texture gets wrapped onto an existing 3D model. It's not perfect, but it's as close as I'm coming tonight. Enjoy.




This file (131KB) contains Cromowheel2.dds and Cromowheel_grip.dds. Unrar them to your lfs\data\dds directory and you're good to go.

Quote from jankes :

the car will simply recover by itself without my intervention. That's what I'm talking about.

You keep saying that.. over and over... but it is NOT. POSSIBLE.

What you are claiming is that if the rear end comes loose, you can let go of the wheel and with no driver intervention, the car will recover perfectly every time. For instance, you are heading into a gentle curve and let go of the wheel, and LFS magically steers you back on track. You're heading into a tight hairpin way too fast and lose it, but LFS magically corrects the spin, adjusts your throttle and braking, and holds the wheel at the perfect angle to get you through the turn. Bullshit. You'll just slam into a wall if you do that, just like you did in the video.

The game doesn't do what you are saying it's doing, ever. It can't.

You obviously have the ability to record and post videos. Instead of repeating "my video doesn't show it" again and again, why don't you just record a video that does show it, OK? Otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:13.

Quote from jankes :

I repeat I DO believe that cars behave in this manner in reality but only to some extent

To what extent do you believe they do? Can you be more specific?

It sounds like you have not understood the explanations given thus far. I can visualize what's going on at the front tires pretty easily, but if you're having a hard time, do the experiement I suggested: car park, LX6, top-down view. Get into a skid, let go of the wheel and floor it, then watch the front tires of the car; the forces acting on them keep them pointed in the direction the car is moving. As the car body whips around, the front wheels try to stay pointing in the same direction, so the steering wheel goes nuts.

Quote from jankes :

Do real cars do this? do they apply just the right ammount of opposite lock depending on the situation with wheel returning to initial position?

Yes. Basically the front wheels remain pointed in the direction of travel while the ass of the car swings around them. From the driver's perspective, the steering wheel is automatically countersteering. The more the rear end swings out, the more the wheel countersteers. When the rear end regains traction and it will fall in behind the front tires. From the driver's perspective, the steering wheel is automatically centering.

Quote :

which unforunately is not simulated in LFS by the looks of things

LFS is hardcore simulation, written by something of a purist. There are no canned effects. The wheel doesn't countersteers becomes the developers explicitly programmed it to, it countersteers because a sophisticated mathematical model of the vehicle's body, suspension, tires, the road surface, etc. has produced that force.

LFS's physics model is not 100% realistic, but it's the best currently on the market. It's very good.

Quote :

Recovering is ridculously easy - letting go of the wheel and waiting for the car to stabilize virtualy in every situation.

Your video shows you slamming into a wall. *confused*

Did you watch the drift videos that were posted? Did you see the wheel countersteer on it's own? Is that not what's happening to you?

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:30.

Well, I'm not a drifter, but from the look of it, drifting is when you throw out the rear end and hold it there through a turn via throttle control. You can't exactly hold it there with a FWD, so the most you can do is a brief skid, not really a drift, IMO.

Quote from jankes :

all I do now when sideways is let go of the steering wheel and wait for the car to stabilise....

Sure, if you want to slam into a wall, like you did in the video. If you want to actually get around the track, you will stop the wheel at the appropriate lock and recenter it when the car gets traction (to avoid spinning out in the opposite direction).

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:51.

Quote from jankes :

The video shows what's happening while doing donuts, the wheel just tries to opposite lock every slide.

Yup. That's what it's supposed to do.

The forces on the front wheels always cause them to line up with the direction the car is moving.

When going in a straight line, you will not feel any force on the wheel. As soon as you apply any steering angle, you feel torque on the steering wheel as the front wheels are trying to pull back to the direction the car is moving.

That's how people drive street cars: you apply force to the wheel to turn, but when coming out of the turn you just let the wheel slide through your fingers and it centers itself.

However, if you oversteer, if the rear end gets loose, the rear end will swing in the direction the car is moving, and so will the front tires. They will turn to face the direction the car is moving. Since the car is now moving sideways, they will turn to the side -- into the turn -- countersteer.

Another way of looking at it: if the rear end of the car swings to the right, but the tires stay pointing in the same direction, what happens to the steering wheel? It turns right.

When the car catches grip at this new, oversteer induced steering angle, the car will whip around to the other direction, and the front tires will follow suit. If you just let go of the wheel and give it enough gas to get the rear end loose, the car will oscillate back and forth like that, with the wheel automatically turning from one side to another.

Go to a parking lot and light up your tires if you don't believe it. Or watch one of the posted drifting videos.

Try this: go to Blackwood Car Park with the LX6, hit V to change the view until you have the overhead view (looking straight down on the top of the car). Now crank the wheel to the right or left and floor it so the rear end comes loose. Take your hands off the wheel, keep the gas down, and just watch the car slide around. Pay attention to the front tires, and you will see that they always try to stay pointing in the direction of the car's momentum.

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:42.

Don Palmer driving handbook

"It transpires that if the rear of the car is sliding laterally the slip angle that this induces in the front tyre generates a corresponding self-aligning torque in the tyre that can be detectable as a torque in the steering wheel.

"Allowing the steering wheel to move with the torque induced in this way will keep the front wheels pointed in the direction that they were originally pointed. The steering wheel may move a considerable amount in these circumstances. Letting go of the steering wheel altogether will allow maximum freedom of movement of the steering wheel in response to self-alignment torque generated in the front tyres by lateral movement of the rear of the vehicle.

"NB. I am not suggesting that we all go round letting go of the steering wheel at every opportunity but as a learning tool it is very important to recognise that the steering torque is capable of moving the wheel appropriately."

Quote from jankes :

Heh, that's exactly what I am doing, letting go of the wheel But the car just recovers but itself. That's what's wrong. It corrects even the tiny slides.

So, the rear end comes loose, the car begins to countersteer, you take your hands off the wheel and instead of the wheel going all the way to the lock, it automagically stops at the exact steering angle needed to get you through the current turn, given your current car, setup, balance, speed, slip angle, throttle/braking inputs, etc.? I don't see how that's possible. LFS doesn't have any kind of assisted steering option.

Maybe you're in spectator mode watching the AI drive? *lol*

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:29.

Quote from jankes :

I am aware that there is no such feature in LFS. So why were those effects absent when I was using red MOMO wheel? Besides, the wheel corects even the oversteer while exiting the corner, making user action almost usless. You won't tell me that real GTR car will correct th oversteer on corner exit.

The MOMO wheel is a lot slower, i.e. less realistic. The G25 is still nowhere near as fast as a real car, but it's much closer than the MOMO. What you are seeing is closer to the real thing, not further.

Yes, if you oversteer, if the rear end comes loose, the front wheels are going to be forced into a countersteer. That's just physics.

User action is useless? Try letting go of the wheel and see what happens.

Last edited by Eric Tetz, Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:42.

Quote from jankes :

Boris Lozac - yes I have done that but to no avail.

No setting is going to take away that automatic countersteer, unless you turn the FF off, because that's what cars do.

Here's a better example. Watch the very first slide in particular. Note that he doesn't push the wheel, he just lets go of it and lets it countersteer automatically, then catches it at the desired angle. If you don't catch the wheel, it's just going to go all the way to the lock.

Quote from jankes :

No one seems to understand my problem. I am not trying to convince any one that self corection is not right but only to some extent. The way it looks here is like some kind of auto opposite lock was turned on.

There is no such feature in LFS or in the G25. What the wheel is doing is coming directly from the physics simulation, and is as accurate as LFS's physics engine and the G25 motor's speed/torque allow.

Go watch any drift video if you want to see what the wheel does when the rear end comes out. Here's one I just googled. You can see him push the wheel in the desired direction, but almost all the countersteering comes from the car itself (the wheel turns much faster than the G25 can).

Quote from craigth :

Here's to intellivibe in LFS if there's any way to accomplish it, even with the tools as given More info soon hopefully!

Hey, if it supported LFS I might get one. Looks like a fun device.

BTW: All the testimonials currently on your site are from flight sim users. Might wanna get a sim racing testimonial on there.

Quote from Tweaker :

The developers will not be doing custom made code for the interests of one single company or person... unless they are paid a large sum of money, or get a free ticket to outer space.

Meh, they do it all the time. They do it for us, but it helps when the gadget they are supporting has some kind of critical mass.

Quote from xaotik :

if you really really want you can actually get that too yourself though using the car dimensions [since the car name is given], orientation and position on track [since the track name is given you can make a look-up map of sorts]).

Oh god, what a nightmare that would be! Even if you could get it to work in S2 (huge amount of work), it would not work in S3, which will presumably support user made content.

Quote from craigth :

I don't constantly pester the developers. Last time I contacted them must have been 6 months ago.

I'm not suggesting you pester them directly. Taking them to task in public for not supporting your product, hoping that community support will prompt them into action, is what I was referring to as 'passive-aggressive'. That may not even be what you are doing, consciously anyway -- I'm just letting you know what it looks like to me (and apparently to the users on your forum, who are saying, literally, "Why are you putting this on us?")

Suggestions? If it was my business, I would learn LFS's InSim interface inside and out and get everything I could from it, then come up with a minimal list of remaining values that I need added for my product to work, and send that list to the developers. You said they left off knowing you didn't have "enough", but that's not really actionable, is it? They need to know your specific requirements as succinctly as possible.

Maybe you should just send them the hardware. When I worked in games, we used to get stuff in the office all the time, usually unsolicited. If we had been asked in advance if we could take a look at it, we probably would have said no in most cases, just because we were so freakin' busy. But once we actually had the stuff there in the office, it would sometimes inspire investigation. I bet if they had an iVibe in the office, they couldn't help themselves. It has way too much geek appeal.

Just poking around your forums, I see threads like these which strongly suggest that your passive-aggressive method of getting support from developers does not work. In fact, it probably just pisses them off.

Looks like a great product, otherwise.

Quote from lyd :

You clearly have an excellent eye for composition in addition to mad your soldering skillz, SatCP. ;-)

Yup, clearly the work of a very smart perfectionist.