Exactly this does matter for some people. You might not care about it but that doesn't mean that nobody does.
Exactly this does matter for some people. You might not care about it but that doesn't mean that nobody does.
You miss my point S14. Totally miss it. I'm talking about the emphasis of developers when making a race sim. I'm saying LFS is an "Online Racing Simulator" not an "Online Vehicle Simulator". That the aspects discussed above are more important in terms of gameplay dynamics than the accuracy of the tyre simulation - given we have an unrealistic control interface anyway, that all is required from the vehicle is to be 'reasonable'.
As for things being easy, no I didnt say that, but easy/difficult means nothing in programming, all that matters is whether you did it or not. Do it again and it's easy. Developing new concepts is never easy, finding good ways to do things which havnt been done and nobody can offer you an off the shelf solution is a challenge, but it is this very challenge which most programmers relish.
I didn't say I don't care about it, only that it doesn't really matter, and it's just being a nitpicker.
And Becky, as I don't quite understand this whole thread..at all really.. are you saying that all these sims put alot of effort into how their cars handle, but not enough into the actual aspects of racing itself? Because if that's not the case, I am stumped as to what you exactly mean. Call it the "just woken up confusion".
Yeah that's pretty much it, it's regarding the emphasis of simulation. See as much effort as you put into the accuracy of the physics the problem remains that the player environment and control interface at their computer is inherrently unrealistic so the vehicle simulation can never be perfect.
Additionally a simulation which focuses on the realisation of an accurante model for the vehicle does not in any way portray what racing is all about, which is mostly a test of driver versus environment, rather than driver versus machine.
The effect on gameplay is that a simulated motor race does not represent a simulation of a real motor race, and the dynamics which result from that is a simulation which creates a 'sim racing' gameplay ethos, where drivers are encouraged to deliver repetition rather than reacting to their surroundings, as the surroundings are static.
Additionally a simulation which focuses on the realisation of an accurante model for the vehicle does not in any way portray what racing is all about, which is mostly a test of driver versus environment, rather than driver versus machine.
The effect on gameplay is that a simulated motor race does not represent a simulation of a real motor race, and the dynamics which result from that is a simulation which creates a 'sim racing' gameplay ethos, where drivers are encouraged to deliver repetition rather than reacting to their surroundings, as the surroundings are static.
It's a big hurdle. I think the main reason this kind of dynamic interaction with the environment hasn't been actively pursued yet is that the future has a better chance with this stuff than the present. A rough model of track temperature shouldn't be too hard right now, but as soon as you start to add variable weather and shifting elements like sand, dirt or water on track, I can see that things would start to get pretty complicated pretty fast. If it rains, then you will probably need to calculate for dirt turning into mud, and drying again over time as the rain stops. You will probably need to calculate how heat is absorbed into the track over time during the day, and released slowly in the late afternoon. If it's very hot during the day then maybe the track will still be warm at night. As an extreme example, on one part of the track, there may be water, dirt(mud), sand, rubber and oil variables all interacting together with the tyres themselves. That's complicated! 
I imagine they haven't been implimented because it would be a monumental task to code. Shifting weather patterns and track temp changes seem to me to be a very complicated thing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
On a sidenote, this has been my thought for quite some time. We have a wind setting within a limited aero model, so why not introduce a temperature setting too?
If you leave a car sitting in the pits for some time, the tyres will cool down so LFS is already aware of an ambient temperature in its innards.
It would be great on servers with random conditions (e.g. CTRA). During hot 'days', people would be forced to play with tyre pressures or switch to R2 or Road Normal from R1 and Supers, while cold days would require a little more attention because of reduced grip.
As an immediate consequence, drivers would need to be more careful and develop a little flexibility when it comes to track conditions, effectively countering the sealed-set/drive-always-the-same approach which is common now.
In short, it would be a first important step towards a truly dynamic environment, in terms of player development.
Yep- track temp would probably just be a slight variation on the tyre temp model- replacing friction with sun strength. (?)
I was thinking of something simpler, just change the ambient temperature which the tyres tend towards and pretend it's a sunny day
Adjustable air temperature would be so awesome. Then we could have a race where the temperature is like 0C and everyone tires would be frigid, and the air would be more dense. Too bad there's no engine heat. Although, couldn't the tire model be used to simulate friction in the engine?
With that same logic we should never have rain, variable tire temps and car damage in a sim. It's a bother anyway...?
Personally I think even at current point LFS could make a very simple dynamic track addition just by being able to change the air temperature and weather (full sun or cloudy). With these two variables (plus wind) you could already have more dynamic environment than all the others sims in total. Maybe even throw some racing line into the mix and I bet it would be a welcomed addition into the sim and wouldn't take too much coding since the most of the stuff is probably already there (we have visually different lightning conditions and surely some values are set in the sim to present those fixed ambient temps). It would be small but defenately doable feature even if I'd like to see a tire patch before that.
But then again maybe another ai patch is more important...
I can tell you right now, if you give people control over the weather, the whole feature will be useless... Just take a look at what weather servers are running now...
For me, all over the above would be marvelous! For the average LFSer I don't think so. The amount of people that come on our server , say 'Oh, wind' and leave doesn't give me much hope for the server that would employ all of this wonderful stuff. 
but it's good to talk.
but it's good to talk. Just force it... There would be a wave of bitching and whining in the first few weeks (like with reset or the clutch heat) but in the end makes LfS better...
No the tyre model could not be used to simulate friction because when you rev the engine alot, it'll go to like 200 degrees and then explode. It'll overheat during cornering and refuse to cool down on the straight. Park up with the engine running for more than 5 minutes and it'll go to -20 degrees.
I'm sure at least few servers would use it and it would be great feature especially for leagues. But as doorman already said, people don't seem to like variables too much. Which is sad, because the reason behind that are the same people won't like proper engine damage, brake fading and more fragile parts on the car...
As for the weather now, it takes an additional click to change it and most won't bother because all that is changed is lightning. I think people would use the different lightning options for tracks more if you were forced to pick one when you are selecting the combo instead of changing the lightning after you have selected a track and waiting it to load.
Not to pick on you Taylor, but because some of the items you mention here are things I want. :-D Marbles and klag will be great, also having oil spills would add to some of the realism. Have kitty litter down to soak it up and then have a few times through it kicking up the dust would be awesome. Recovery trucks would be an awesome thing. Personally, I'd love being able to manually drive and operate the recovery trucks (I reckon it would be cool for the cruise servers, especially.) Another addition along these lines would be a sweeper truck and a jet blower, to blow the klag clean. Especially after league races, the blowers and sweepers could/should go out to clean the track off before the next race. On the oval, it would be good to give the track a bit of a cleaning during a late-race Safety Car during the last 50 or so laps of a 270 lap race.
It would add to the immersion, for me at least, of having 32 slots for the racers still, but an extra 5-7 slots for "Course Vehicles" such as the Safety Car, a Medical Car, Rescue Trucks, a sweeper truck and/or a jet blower - it would also be cool to have "holes" in the wall where the trucks could park in so they'd be out of harm's way during racing, but could easily pop onto track when needed.
Of course, I would think the vehicles would be most used by leagues, and lightly, if at all during pickup racing, and could possibly be automated in pickup.
I would personally find it cool to have to wait a bit to race because it's pissed down rain so hard that there's a creek on the backstraigt at Blackwood at 200m to the turn, or a stream running down the corkscrew at Aston and the sweepers/dryers have to go out to disperse it before the track is raceable.
I do believe that more emphasis needs to be placed on the environment. More flags needed. the ability to "ignore" a certain amount of laps and deem them as "pace laps" and set laps of say, 135 or 268 or 188 or so.
But then again, I don't race too terribly much, but I love realism. I had wind on for the Kyoto 500, and the lighting set to Cloudy Morning. There were no complaints (that I remember) about the wind, and only a couple people complained about it "being dark" I must say, I love the cloudy afternoon setting at Kyoto, and the Evening setting at SO. Beautiful. So too at Blackwood. I'm a realism freak. I'm all for anything that adds to the realism.
How that hunk of useless bling is supposed to rescue anything is beyond me
So? You avoid the stream, and if there's a puddle at the bottom, you avoid that too
And is it only in America that they have those jet dryers you keep going on about? Because I really don't see the need for them anywhere but the oval.
It's got tools to rescue things. It was the best I could find. I've seen them at road courses here to clear debris and excess standing water. Yes, if a stream of water or a puddle is dangerous (it could be running completely across track and at least what I consider a sane race director would temporarily halt the race to let the stream either clear after a rainstorm finishes, or send a sweeper or jet blower to disperse the puddles or so.
d
That would only happen when the SC comes out, otherwise it's just a surface flag (of course, not on ovals).
Surely all that would be needed is the track SC, medical car, the Land Rovers for used for towing (or the snatch cranes), tilt and slides and possibly an ambulance. Aside from the SC they don't really need to be visible. Snatch cranes are used at F1 level for almost everything, if not it's tilt and slides. In the BTCC it's almost all a matter of towing it with a Landy.
They could simply be invisible as they would be parked off track most of the time. Visibility would be good for PCs that can cope (most)
Automation is good, not all leagues have enough people to drive everything. Maybe have them automatically enabled for races over a certain length.
That would be an issue of starting behind the safety car, not use of dryers (except on ovals).
Or just a "rolling start" option.
Over here in the UK we just race deko If there is a stream on track, and on our under invested club and national tracks you can be sure there is, then it's cleared by the cars ! I have seen track maintenance sweepers in the UK but only at a GP.
If there is a stream on track, and on our under invested club and national tracks you can be sure there is, then it's cleared by the cars ! I have seen track maintenance sweepers in the UK but only at a GP.Tree and leaf sap is important on any circuit with overhanging trees. I've not driven a big track like that (Hockenheim, Spa etc) but i've driven a kart track like it, Turn 1 at Redlodge (JackG's home circuit) is at some times of the year the slippiest bit of tarmac you'll ever come across. It takes real confidence to take it at full pelt because you have to believe the amount of traction you think is there is actually what is there, otherwise you'll loose the back end. It's one of the key challenges of that circuit, and grip levels change throughout the day, making it an interesting and evolving challenge.
well it originally only arose as an example of low grip, there are lots of situations which can arise in the surface not giving as much grip at other times, more than just temperature. Spills from cars, moisture in the morning, a bump in the track where there was a puddle and the water being gradually drawn out as cars ocassionally go through it. If the track is next to a motocross arena you'll find that offline is very dirty from all the dust kicked up by the motox bikes, there are all sorts of means that a track gives up grip other than temperature, most of them being particular nuances of a given track, which is the point I was making.
In LFS for example, on the exit of that right-left after the main straight is an orchard. How could would it be to have leaves on the circuit on that exit at the start of morning sessions, maybe in the winter the surface there is re-paved and the smoothness allows the dew and sap to cause more slip, but after a seering hot summer the tarmac is cracked and it gives more grip in low-grip situations, but doesnt offer as much in hot weather...
In LFS for example, on the exit of that right-left after the main straight is an orchard. How could would it be to have leaves on the circuit on that exit at the start of morning sessions, maybe in the winter the surface there is re-paved and the smoothness allows the dew and sap to cause more slip, but after a seering hot summer the tarmac is cracked and it gives more grip in low-grip situations, but doesnt offer as much in hot weather...
Well, it's LFS and fantasyland still, so we can all pretend that every track and race has oodles of money to blow on this stuff. :-D
Plus, it would give me something to do that I might not suck so much at: Sweeping the track. Much easier that driving the SC at a oneGP race where your SC driver you thought you'd have leaves the server and me having to SC with 0 practice laps on the combo.
I do like things that don't take much practice atm, since I don't have so much time to practice until I get a computer that's not my MacBook to play LFS on. Stupid onboard graphics on all my desktops hindering performance.
But still, +1 for the track variables such as klag and sap and puddles and leaves and dust and whatnot. Then it might even things out a bit as to who's good at dealing with conditions and tweaking to suit.
btw, "klag" is a David Hobbism for those who might not know. Means, "the bits of rubber that get thrown off the tires to the side of the road outside the racing-line."
:-D
You'll find everybody else refers to them by their name, marbles.
An Open Letter to Sim Racing Developers
(77 posts, started )
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