i only left vettel out because of his 4 DNFs at the season start tbh. Sutil has had DNFs i know, but i cant think of any that arew his fault... If u wanna see what a champion is like, look at the 2002 reuslts for schumi, and then the 2004 results for even more impressingz

And how was Kubica crap? You say top 6 have been crap O_O. I think he deserves it the most tbh... He was quite consistent and has a good enough speed for that car...

I don't think Vettel's all that special. He pulled something cool out of the bag in bizarre conditions, but I don't think there's enough other points on the graph to plot any pro-Vettel curves.

Button pulled a win out of the bag in wet conditions too, and he's a really crap driver. I don't think Vettel's win is any indicator. He's by far the most popular driver with the press, though. They're convinced he's a really nice bloke.. and if he's the personality they say he is, then he's the one I'd like to win the most.

Alonso and Hamilton are still the strongest talent out there, and I think they're both willing to work as hard as they need to get the win. Alonso's still a backstabbing, spoiled git, but he's a talented spoiled git.

Kimi is lazy and relies entirely on his talent - he's gonna hate this winter, because they're apparently gonna make him work for a living.

Massa's not got the gonads and just doesn't have that snarl that he needs to be an outstanding talent - though he really has come on leaps and bounds since starting out. Close to peaking, though.

Kubica could be the one, but just like Neo, I think he's waiting for something. For now, he's plodding.. not quite got the belief in himself, I think. If he got that, and a fire in his belly about it, then I think he'd surpass Alonso.

The rest of them are just filling up the grid and making the sport look like it's still happening.

Well what made me see Vettel's talent isn't actually only his win. He was in the top group in practices, quali and some races for a couple of races IIRC... But yeah, he's young and he will improve imo.

I agree that Alonso and Hamilton are the only ones that actually seem to be fighting and racing for something... The rest just feels kinda THERE.

Kimi's just weird... I don't like him lol.... He had so many opportunities of getting good results and blew them on the closing laps its incredible...

Massa's fast but I don't see him fight that much and he's kinda passive...

Meh I still want and think that Kubica is the one who deserves the WDC the most this year though...

I wouldn't object to Kubica getting the title over Hamilton. I'd just really rather Massa didn't get it on principle. That's really because he didn't earn quite a few of his points, they were gifted to him by the FIA - stolen from other drivers, like Bourdais.

If Kubica did get the title (which is, let's face it, a hell of a stretch at this point), he'd get it on aggregate. He'd get it because of other people failing, more than by him achieving. tbh, I don't think that's the best way to win a title at all. If he got the points, he'd deserve the win, but it wouldn't be that good a win.

Kubica does have a future, though, no doubt about it. He's also more attractive to the top teams than Alonso.. so he's more likely to pick up a good seat than Alonso in the years to come.

[edit] I just looked at the points.. okay, Kubica's only gonna win this if he can get 1.21 gigawatts through that car's ECU.

Quote from SamH :

I don't think Vettel's all that special. He pulled something cool out of the bag in bizarre conditions, but I don't think there's enough other points on the graph to plot any pro-Vettel curves.

What Veltlet did was to get the pole and win in a far inferior car, being faster than the fastest other cars, totally dominating the race and keeping his nerves in check. Surely it helped that the toro rosso apparently had full rain setup but still it was no surprize after friday and saturday that the race was going to be wet. As for mentioning Buttock's win in the same thread is totally out of context. While Veltlet was the fastest man on the race and dominated the race, Buttocks was given the victory by pure luck of rightly timed safety car. Also it needs to be mentioned that Veltlet seems to place quite well in the grid constantly even if his car shouldn't allow that. Also need to remember that Lonso was actually winning the race before Buttock's car broken down.

It is not possible to compare Veltlet's win with Buttocks win. Other was purely lucky while the other is said to have the best setup for wet conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Hungarian_Grand_Prix

And Masaa has lost a lot points because of bad luck. When you look at the points table please try to keep that in mind.

Quote from Hyperactive :

What Veltlet did was to get the pole and win in a far inferior car, being faster than the fastest other cars, totally dominating the race and keeping his nerves in check. Surely it helped that the toro rosso apparently had full rain setup but still it was no surprize after friday and saturday that the rain was going to be wet. As for mentioning Buttock's win in the same thread is totally out of context. While Veltlet was the fastest man on the race and dominated the race, Buttocks was given the victory by pure luck of rightly timed safety car. Also it needs to be mentioned that Veltlet seems to place quite well in the grid constantly even if his car shouldn't allow that. Also need to remember that Lonso was actually winning the race before Buttock's car broken down.

It is not possible to compare Veltlet's win with Buttocks win. Other was purely lucky while the other is said to have the best setup for wet conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Hungarian_Grand_Prix

And Masaa has lost a lot points because of bad luck. When you look at the points table please try to keep that in mind.

LOL @ the part I put in bold. xD

Quote from SamH :

I don't think Vettel's all that special. He pulled something cool out of the bag in bizarre conditions, but I don't think there's enough other points on the graph to plot any pro-Vettel curves.

???

He's currently 8th in the championship, ahead of both Toyotas, Red Bulls, and a Renault, all of which should be at least equal or faster than his car.

Although he still needs to prove himself against an established driver (I'm waiting eagerly for next season, when he'll be pitched alongside Mark "Newb-Crusher" Webber), he's showing great promise so far.

Quote :

Kubica does have a future, though, no doubt about it. He's also more attractive to the top teams than Alonso..

There are a lot of positive things you can call Kubica, attractive isn't one of them lol

Quote from Becky Rose :

There are a lot of positive things you can call Kubica, attractive isn't one of them lol

True - if he had any sort of attraction going on he'd soon have little noses in orbit around him.

Quote from Hyperactive :

What Veltlet did was to get the pole and win in a far inferior car, being faster than the fastest other cars, totally dominating the race and keeping his nerves in check.

No doubt he had a good race setup, but saying that he won solely because of this is pure nonsense. He had a great deal of luck handed to him in qualifying. Nearly everyone qualified "out of position". As a result, the grid on race day was a mess, and people had to do significantly more overtaking than normal, and in the rain. Vettel didn't have to do anything other than keep his car on the circuit. Sure, he did a good job, but when the faster drivers broke free of the crowd (all be it too late in the race) they were lapping consistently better than him.

As for Vettel being a nice bloke, I think he's one of the nicest chaps in F1. Unlike some F1 drivers that are patronising in interviews, he talks frankly and honestly, and has a sense of humour to boot, which in F1 is a rarity. Oh, he also has more than a single tone in his voice too

Quote from dawguk :

No doubt he had a good race setup, but saying that he won solely because of this is pure nonsense. He had a great deal of luck handed to him in qualifying. Nearly everyone qualified "out of position". As a result, the grid on race day was a mess, and people had to do significantly more overtaking than normal, and in the rain. Vettel didn't have to do anything other than keep his car on the circuit. Sure, he did a good job, but when the faster drivers broke free of the crowd (all be it too late in the race) they were lapping consistently better than him.

As for Vettel being a nice bloke, I think he's one of the nicest chaps in F1. Unlike some F1 drivers that are patronising in interviews, he talks frankly and honestly, and has a sense of humour to boot, which in F1 is a rarity. Oh, he also has more than a single tone in his voice too

The funny thing is that on tyres of the same age and similar fuel loads people WEREN'T quicker than him.

Besides, if winning from the front is so easy it confirms my suspicion that Hamilton isn't an all time great as he's only ever had the best car (or second best car) in F1. Stick him in a Torro Rosso and watch him burn!

Quote from tristancliffe :

The funny thing is that on tyres of the same age and similar fuel loads people WEREN'T quicker than him.

I'm sure that there is pure physics that could explain this, but without knowing formula, I couldn't give a scientific answer. But look at it like this - all cars must have various optimum values for optimal racing. In conditions such as this, those settings are all flattened out, making the playing field much more even. For example, an F1 car might lap a circuit 6 times faster than a standard road car, but in the rain, it might lap a circuit only 4 times faster.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Besides, if winning from the front is so easy it confirms my suspicion that Hamilton isn't an all time great as he's only ever had the best car (or second best car) in F1. Stick him in a Torro Rosso and watch him burn!

Nobody is disputing the fact that he's in a very good car, but Formula One isn't all about the car - it's also about having the ability to get the most of the car as a driver. Kovi has the same car, but isn't nearly as quick, even with the same fuel levels. Put Michael Schumacher in a Jordan (back in the day) and watch him burn too. A driver can only be as good as his car.

Shumi came 3rd in his second season, in a benetton(at the time was a midfeild runner) Wtf you talking about?

Vettels performance in Monza wasn't luck(sure it was lucky that it was raining for him to be that far up)as the conditions allowed an equal level playing field which in that case he got pole and won.

Hamilton wasn't even that impressive sure he made up quiet a few postions but by the end he was getting outpaced by Webber so he did a stupid move on him to insure he would be slower.

This year imo won't have a deserving champion. But its mainly due to the FIA then the drivers.

Quote from dawguk :

Put Michael Schumacher in a Jordan (back in the day) and watch him burn too. A driver can only be as good as his car.

I take it you are aware of what Schumacher did on his debut with Jordan at Spa, after only a few laps testing at Silverstone 2 days earlier? Okay, so the clutch burnt out at the race start (never heard if it was his fault or not, but I don't think he can take too much blame considering!), but still...

Quote from Mustafur :

Hamilton wasn't even that impressive sure he made up quiet a few postions but by the end he was getting outpaced by Webber so he did a stupid move on him to insure he would be slower.

Dont forget that hamilton was by far the fastest guy on track that race and could have won if luck was on his side (rain fall as forcast that did'nt fall) so im not surprised he was getting out paced by webber after destroying his tires earlier.

Quote from dawguk :

For example, an F1 car might lap a circuit 6 times faster than a standard road car, but in the rain, it might lap a circuit only 4 times faster.

Under the same conditions I fail to see how it would suddenly lose speed like that to an extent that it would drastically change the ratio.

Example

In 1998 the race in Silverstone was held in heavy rain - fastest lap was 1:35 (I suspect on a damp track - not during the heavy rainfall)
In 1999 the same race was in the dry - fastest lap was 1:28

This video compares f1 vs road car on the same circuit layout on a damp track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_JCx3_vlc

The F1 car laps at a decent 1:33 and the road car at 2:54. I imagine that the road car under dry conditions would make up a corresponding amount of time.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

I think this one was more Ron Dennis' fault who tried to make a strategy on the fly to beat Alonso while he should keep the focus on fighting Räikkönen, wasn't it ?



That's more about what I find worrying.
Two other examples just come up to my mind:
Last week in Japan in the very last lap of the race, he pushed like mad locking wheels and burning tyres just to overtake Alonso before the finish line. What for ?
And also the famous 'there is a red light at the pit exit and also a car stopped on the track' but he didn't notice any of them. How come this could happen ?

Anyone can do and will do mistakes sooner or later. But crazy things ? Come on, this is not a video game...

Don't forget Japan's second corner, Hamilton was 3rd and when he tried to pass Alonso he went down to 8th or so.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I take it you are aware of what Schumacher did on his debut with Jordan at Spa, after only a few laps testing at Silverstone 2 days earlier? Okay, so the clutch burnt out at the race start (never heard if it was his fault or not, but I don't think he can take too much blame considering!), but still...

not to forget that he qualified 7th (back when qualifying still made sense and was about dirving as fast as possible without any artificial randomness in the results) in a jordan in his first ever race and managed to go up to 5th within the 500m his clutch survived for

Quote from andybarsblade :

Dont forget that hamilton was by far the fastest guy on track that race and could have won if luck was on his side (rain fall as forcast that did'nt fall) so im not surprised he was getting out paced by webber after destroying his tires earlier.

yeah he completely dominated by being almost 2 seconds slower than kimi
http://www.manipef1.com/results/2008/italy.php

Quote from S3ANPukekoh3 :

What about China last year (was that China?) When it was absolutley pissing down and the F1 cars couldn't keep up with the safety car?

You mean in Japan where Hamilton overshot the safety car and then Vettel panicked when Webber braked hard and rammed the latter out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhVVv81KGLE

EDIT:
Think of it in a reasonable manner though - why should they try to push and keep up with the SC and risk crashing into it because they can't see it? When they were given the "go" to pass it and get back into normal race order they did so using as much caution as possible. All in all I think the SC example isn't what the original road car vs f1 comparison was about.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I take it you are aware of what Schumacher did on his debut with Jordan at Spa, after only a few laps testing at Silverstone 2 days earlier? Okay, so the clutch burnt out at the race start (never heard if it was his fault or not, but I don't think he can take too much blame considering!), but still...

aye, but in contrast he was standing in for Bertrand Gachot, who was on the weekend of the Belgian Grand Prix in a hotel at her majesties pleasure (he got banged up for spraying a London cabbie with CS gas). The Jordan's had looked in scintillating form at Belgium as their car perfectly suited the track - and the team felt that in Gachot's hands the car was capable of a reasonable shot at winning. The Jordan might not have been the strongest package that year, but it definately suited Belgium.

Schumacher qualified 7th, burnt out the clutch at the start, and then jumped ship to Benetton against his contract, a move that would later cost him and Briotore a 7 figure sum in court. I was a Schumacher fan until he did that.

Quote from Becky Rose :

aye, but in contrast he was standing in for Bertrand Gachot, who was on the weekend of the Belgian Grand Prix in a hotel at her majesties pleasure (he got banged up for spraying a London cabbie with CS gas). The Jordan's had looked in scintillating form at Belgium as their car perfectly suited the track - and the team felt that in Gachot's hands the car was capable of a reasonable shot at winning. The Jordan might not have been the strongest package that year, but it definately suited Belgium.

Schumacher qualified 7th, burnt out the clutch at the start, and then jumped ship to Benetton against his contract, a move that would later cost him and Briotore a 7 figure sum in court. I was a Schumacher fan until he did that.

Wrong, Benetton won the case as Shumacher never signed a formal contract with Jordan so they had no case.

That and Benetton > Jordan at the time by far.

Quote from Shotglass :

yeah he completely dominated by being almost 2 seconds slower than kimi
http://www.manipef1.com/results/2008/italy.php

Yes thats right because races can be summed up in 1 timing sheet , how about changing conditions.

iirc he never had the fastest lap during that race so whats your point?

Quote from Shotglass :

iirc he never had the fastest lap during that race so whats your point?

Hes hamilton and everyone must know that