Well, first of all I'm racer, and as also written up there from silentwar:
If there is tarmac and space that helps being faster (turn 1 A1 GP e.g.), racer will use it. I might be a bit harsh in my words, but this "it's not really fair to use what is given" is not my type of competition. Especially, cause it isnt a bug.
Everyone does it, it is common in hotlapping. Not only on Kyoto, also on Fern Bay (green, club, gold - watch those incredibly high curbs) and some other tracks. As long as the hotlap is valid, it is valid. As long as the suspension doesn't break and you can go on driving without problems, it is fine!
This behaviour really is in the instincts of a driver trying to go as fast as possible. Who is to judge whether it's not "noble" or not "righteous" to cut a certain chicane or to use every centimeter of track available?
The only judge can be HLVC, because none of us can really be the impartial arbitrator. There would always be controversies about what should be and what should not be...
It's basically the same in racing - which driver was in fault and caused the incident? Each participant will tell you otherwise, which is why you need a judge - or a jury.
As of this moment, HLVC says the lap is valid. That's all we can refer to. Everyone is free to use every centimeter of the track which is considered valid. Moral preconceptions aside - hotlapping is about going as fast as you possibly can. No compromises, just you, the car, the setup and the clock.
Imo, there are two ways to resolve this issue:
1.) fix HLVC (or the tracks) and make it more strict (and while we're at it, please make HLVC not register those strips of grass/gravel which can't possibly be used for cheating/cutting. Especially because tires can get dirty now and it almost never pays off to cut the track much.)
2.) establish an admin staff which checks every hotlap for validity and "racing ethics" before it will be accepted for the hotlap charts
I fully agree you shouldn't be intentionally smacking walls to brake faster (like sprint2), because that could be considered cheating. So could be button clutch, but there have been to many debates on this already.
However, using odd setups due to incomplete physics is not cheating. We are all using those partitially buggy and incomplete physics with its own dynamics and requirements.
We cannot stick to what applies to real life only, because LFS isn't real life (yet). LFS is LFS, it has its limitations. And within its limitations, you have to try to find out what works best.
Again: who is to judge which setup is ethically right or wrong? Using a high nose on the downforce cars - what exactly defines "high"? Will there be regulations on what the maximum height of the nose is and otherwise you will be accused of bug exploitation? We shouldn't make our lives harder than necessary. We should learn to live with the limitations of LFS until the next patch arrives.
No harm is done when we have equal conditions for everyone. As many of you say - all that matters is good racing. Doesn't matter if its a bobby car, a bicycle, a bucket rolling downhill or an FO8 with normal ride height or raised nose - as long as the conditions are equal and there's some fair competition.
If you can't detach yourself from your reality-focussedness in terms of setup or the nature of hotlapping, then fine - live with being slower and voluntarily placing yourself at a disadvantage. At least you've demonstrated how stubborn and true to your principles you can be :P
if im reading the pic correctly hes starting his out lap from off circuit to gain speed before the start line
nothing new, check out rosberg in the williams in 82 (i think) at spa, he reversed right up to barrier at the hairpin before the run to eau rouge. in those days the timing line was on the run down from the hairpin and the barrier a long way down the escape road. he gained a good 200yds at full throttle but in his case mucked it up at end of lap by sliding wide at hairpin
Instead of moaning about it people should embrace it and try and use it to improve their own hotlap times. If they don't hotlap then why do they care about WRs anyway?
To be fair I can kinda see his point. But maybe he's only upset because he didn't think of it first. If it was him that considered using that extra 'runway' to launch his lap with then it would have been someone else complaining.
At the end of the day. It's a hotlap. And the term is serlf explanitory. For me a hot lap is a balls out, no prisoners kinda lap. A lap that shreds your tyres and kills the suspension. And that is the point. It's the sacrifice of longevity for a quick fix. A light that burns twice as bright and all that. A hot lap should be using everything that the circuit and the cars have to offer in the sole aim of getting the fastest lap. Otherwise, why bother?
Like I said. If this paricular example of track expliotation (and don't confuse the usage here, I think too many people put 'exploit' down as being a back concept. It ain't if it doesn't break teh rules.) is considered unfair or just plain wrong, then it will get changed. An obstruction or circuit change put in place that will make the hotlaps comply to what people consider fair and/or correct. Although quite often what is fair and what is technically correct arn't always bed fellows.
And i find it interesting that questioning this thing automatically becomes whining or moaning, all i've done is state my opinion in very simple terms.
I was referring to the original post that started the thread. The author was requesting that this type of thing should be banned. If that's not a moan I don't know what is.
It seems like alot of people have intepreted my original post as "moany", and in a second post i actually did say i considered it an exploit. though, the original question was "do you consider this ok, or should it be fixed?" or something to the same effect. i will not even comment the guy who claimed i made the post beacuse i was upset beacuse i didnt think of the thing first. actully, I wouldn't say that i've actually taken a stand in the matter, see, i also use some of the current exploits in lfs, the high-noise exploit for example.
if im not mistaken, there's been a discussion on the high-nose dealie? and if im not mistaken, most people want it fixed, right? beacuse it's an exploit. there's no need to start flaming me just beacuse i was the one who started the discussion.
Point taken. You were starting a discussion and not maoning - I apologise.
I just feel we have been provided with an environment in which to compete against each other. And ofcourse poeple will make use of anything in that environment to get an advantage over the competition i.e. wide lines on corner entry.
This thing happens IRL too. The most successful competitors in motorsport will search the regs looking for loop holes that could give them an advantage over the competition. This is exactly the same thing in my view.
The last online game i played "seriously" saw new features over time, one of these was the ability to turn a specificly complex maneuver into the touch of a button. This might seem very dissimilar, but the interesting thing was most players stayed away from it, as it wasn't accepted by the community. Players who did use it weren't necessarily flamed, and AFAIK never locked out of any organized competition / leagues, but it still never got "popular", since it was ..
This example isn't even so bad, on Blackwood GP there are two exploits in the physics and the HLVC, and it's blatantly obvious they should not be allowed. And yet, it will be HLVC ok. I saw a few guys use one of the exploits, but they later removed their hotlaps from lfsworld.
It's a bit hard comparing such physics bugs and HLVC flaws to RL.
as far as the using bits of tarmac that dont belong to the layout thing goes id say so what but when it comes to hotlaps that damage the cars (like the so tricks biggie mentioned) i think there should be a threshold for how much damage a car may take before the lap gehts hlvc invalid
I think people are misunderstanding where the advantage is in that screen shot.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't about 'cutting', but that the driver has used a piece of road that is not part of that track configuration in order to give a longer and therefore faster run upto the s/f line for the start of the hotlap. Is this right?
Yes. You drive off the "usual" line and take every inch of the track to get a bit more speed over the finishing line to get an extra time-bonus for your hotlap.
Well, if HLVC doesn't see/stop it, and if it's there for everyone equally to do (even if it hasn't occured to most) it can't really be considered cheating.
I don't mind that ideology at all and do use every inch available in hotlapping. What gets to me with this particular one is that to get the car into the position shown in the pics early on, one must drive backwards on the track and/or reverse. Driving backwards on a race track looking for an extra 2 metres sounds a bit.. "off".
Yes yes thank you I am aware that ppl drive backwards all the time to warm their tires in LFS, but that's not the same thing because 1. you can accomplish the same thing by doing a warm-up lap in the right direction and 2. in real life the tires are brought as close to the optimum temperature before The Lap.
