Continuing my learning and reading of LFS I've got yet another question. Many of the articles I've read say to check the tire temps of each tire at the exit of the corner that heats each specific tire the most. If the temps are not evenly spread, you need to adjust camber.

My question is if the tire temps are really the best way to check for camber or would the tire load display be better? The reason I ask this is that after running down a long straight and then making a hard left turn, the outside of the RF tire will not be nearly as hot as the inside before you start the turn so the chances of it heating up that much in the turn doesn't seem possible to me. Then again, I really don't know much which is why I ask the question.

I set the camber using the load display initally, then I may tweak it based on the temperatures I get. That said, I still don't know for certain if it's better to maintain flat camber or comprimise a bit for more even temps. It may depend on the car and track.

Well Android has extracted both the temerature and load curves now, so in theory we could work it out.

what good is even tempurature if you never have a full contact patch? I believe that a setup where your ttires are flat as much as possible(iin turns) is better than one that heats evelny(for fast laps at least).

Quote from RE Amemiya :

what good is even tempurature if you never have a full contact patch? I believe that a setup where your ttires are flat as much as possible(iin turns) is better than one that heats evelny(for fast laps at least).

The only argument I can think of is that 80% of a warm tire has more grip than 100% of a cool tire. The numbers may vary but at some point part of a warm tire is better than all of a cold tire. But, that's why I asked the question to begin with.

I guess then we get to hjow many laps we are planning to do. I know that inferno's sets have super negative camber, and they are really fast. but they dont last long at all.

Yup, it's to do with life.

The reason real cars don't use such stupid amounts of camber is because of tyre life (and, in club racing, costs), not because it wouldn't actually work.

Even in F1 a few years ago (before single lap qualifying and parc ferme conditions) they increased the camber for qualifying, because they didn't care about tyre life at that point. Now, with softer compounds and restricted adjustments, they have to run cambers that are more likely to last the distance.

Temperatures aren't actually that critical for single lap performance, but higher temperatures result in faster wear, so most racing tries to vaguely even out the temperature across the tread to keep wear under control.

Sadly, until LFS finds a way of limiting tyre usage somehow (or if clever InSim people manage it) then we'll be stuck with outrageous camber values. Also, the hotlapping mentality of racers doesn't help, because everyone wants to use hotlapping setups (possibly adjusted as little as possible to get tyres through a race distance).

Yeh but camber looks kewl.

I don't mind unrealistic setups as long as it doesn't affect me. If someone drives 20mph slower than everyone because of his lowrider setup and makes me crash, then I'll be pissed off. But if the guy use -4.5 to the 4 corners and manages to finish his race I don't give a shit.

Edit: Oh yeh, I'm one of those driving with stupid amount of camber.

The whole reason I asked the question is because I'm trying to learn how to setup a car. The car I've chosen is the FBM and it seems the only way I can get even tire temps on that car at Westhill is with POSITIVE camber. This is completely opposite of what I think it should be.

Now, I'm sure part of it is that I'm starting with the default FBM setup and that will change as I make other adjustments but for now the only way to get even tire temps is with positive camber but that results in uneven tire load. I'm open to suggestions.

BTW, the reason I've not just used a better setup is twofold. First, it seems every setup for the FBM I've tried is way too loose for me. Second, and more importantly I really want to get an understanding of how to set a car up and I really think the only way to do this is to actually do it. I'll take any advice I can get.

Quote from jarmenia :

The car I've chosen is the FBM and it seems the only way I can get even tire temps on that car at Westhill is with POSITIVE camber. This is completely opposite of what I think it should be.

Positive 'live' camber, or positive camber 'adjust'. I suspect the latter, and that the camber is actually still slightly negative while on track.

In LFS, the contact patch alignment is by far the most important factor for grip. For the usually used tyre pressures (i.e., rather low) cambers of about -5° to -6° are optimal, though it's easy to see with the grey load bars anyway.

The temperature has a rather small effect on grip and only really comes into play on overheating, especially considering that what is often considered a "cold"/blue tyre is actually a pretty well heated one, only ~20°C below optimal temp. You never race with really cold tyres in LFS, the only exception being maybe the inner tyres during an oval race.

If tyre life would allow it we'd all run on maximum negative camber, but right now it's the case of using as much neg. camber as possible without the tyres overheating.

As Bob pointed out, it's also very important to note that what you modify in the setup is the camber adjust, not the camber directly. The value you set for the adjustment is of no importance whatsoever, the live value displayed on the right is what actually matters. Additionally, keep in mind that this live camber value is already the camber of the contact patch, not of the rim/wheel. Since the rubber bends when you adjust the camber in the garage, always make sure to "drop" the car after adjusting to get meaningful values.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yup, it's to do with life.

The reason real cars don't use such stupid amounts of camber is because of tyre life (and, in club racing, costs), not because it wouldn't actually work.

Even in F1 a few years ago (before single lap qualifying and parc ferme conditions) they increased the camber for qualifying, because they didn't care about tyre life at that point. Now, with softer compounds and restricted adjustments, they have to run cambers that are more likely to last the distance.

Temperatures aren't actually that critical for single lap performance, but higher temperatures result in faster wear, so most racing tries to vaguely even out the temperature across the tread to keep wear under control.

Sadly, until LFS finds a way of limiting tyre usage somehow (or if clever InSim people manage it) then we'll be stuck with outrageous camber values. Also, the hotlapping mentality of racers doesn't help, because everyone wants to use hotlapping setups (possibly adjusted as little as possible to get tyres through a race distance).

and that's my problem, always use race setups for hotlaps....oh well I'm fine with my sucky PB's XD

Quote from Bob Smith :

Positive 'live' camber, or positive camber 'adjust'. I suspect the latter, and that the camber is actually still slightly negative while on track.

You are correct, positive camber adjust but the live setting is still negative.

I'm curious though, how do real drivers adjust camber? They obviously have no easy readouts of tyre load.

Discussions with the tyre manufacturer and suspension designer to deduce what the camber change in roll/bump is, and what the tyres tolerate. Then fine tune using tyre temperatures (being careful to allow for temperature variation due to inflation pressure).

My car with Avon slicks (ever so slightly wider than the F3 control tyre) was suggested to have -3° front and -2° rear, so that's what we've set it to. I very much doubt it'll get adjusted during the season, other than resetting it if it alters.

Borrowing this thread Anyone knows what difference between inner and outer temps I should aim at? I made a endurance setup once for the XRR aiming at 10-15 deg. difference (inner temp higher). I noticed two things
1 Very little negative camber was needed. Don't remember exact values but something -1, -1.5 maybe. Adjusted, not "live" angle. Live angle probably was .5 deg less)
2 I had to set different camber angels for all 4 wheels.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing to individually set camber angels?

Don't worry about the adjustment angle. The only thing that matters is the live angle.

Different camber on all 4 wheels is nothing unusual, especially if all the fast corners are lefts and all the slow corners are rights (for example).

The most accurate way to test an endurance set is to drive lap after lap until a tire blows. Then make your adjustments and do it again. The best set is the one that is both fast and lasts a long time.

The driver can make a huge difference too. In the 24HR race at Aston GP (AS5), we (CoRe) ran in the GT2 class with the XRR. We had a set that would last rcpilot and me at least 23 laps, but one of our drivers popped a tire after 18 or 19.

Quote from Forbin :

Don't worry about the adjustment angle. The only thing that matters is the live angle.

Different camber on all 4 wheels is nothing unusual, especially if all the fast corners are lefts and all the slow corners are rights (for example).

The most accurate way to test an endurance set is to drive lap after lap until a tire blows. Then make your adjustments and do it again. The best set is the one that is both fast and lasts a long time.

The driver can make a huge difference too. In the 24HR race at Aston GP (AS5), we (CoRe) ran in the GT2 class with the XRR. We had a set that would last rcpilot and me at least 23 laps, but one of our drivers popped a tire after 18 or 19.

Tyre wear and tempratures depends on more than just wheel camber, things like the roll center, camber links (length and angle) the weight distribution, drive layout (4WD, FWD and RWD) and most of all your particular driving style all come into play, everybodys driving style is diffrent some ppl are smoother than others which means they are easyer on their tyres which keeps the tempratures down and increses their life.

Quote from ADDMAN :

Tyre wear and tempratures depends on more than just wheel camber, things like the roll center, camber links (length and angle) the weight distribution, drive layout (4WD, FWD and RWD) ...

If we assume a single car then all of this remains fairly constant, barring slight variations due to suspension setup (speaking of which, you forgot spring, ARB, and aero balance and suspension damping).

Quote from ADDMAN :

...and most of all your particular driving style all come into play, everybodys driving style is diffrent some ppl are smoother than others which means they are easyer on their tyres which keeps the tempratures down and increses their life.

That's what I was getting at with my example.