So, yesterday I managed to get into my first accident. On a wet curve, my front tires completely lost all grip and I slid across the yellow line and clipped the rear end of a pickup. Not fun.

Anyway, it got me to thinking. Manufacturers always design cars with a bit of understeer because it is safer for most drivers. However, I've always said that if I ever buy a car, I am going to make sure that I adjust the suspension to have a hint of oversteer, because I'd feel safer driving a car like that.

The fact of the matter is that I feel very nervous driving a car that when I get past the limits of grip, doesn't let me do anything other than travel on a predetermined curve. I'd much rather have the car spin out, but at least be more involved in what is happening with the vehicle at that point.

Does anyone else think that, or is it really just a stupid idea?

Drive sensibly thn you won't get near the limit, you're on a road not a race track, think of others!

Spinning out is great.


As long as you can pretty much guarantee you'll spin to the outside, and that you'll never fishtale. As soon as you get into a tankslapper (which everyone does playing with oversteer), you run the risk of driving headlong into a car.

And you won't be able to brake (make it worse).

With an understeery car the limit is approached very gradually, giving you a couple of weeks notice something bad is going to happen. You can then ease off (or even lightly brake) to correct it. If that's not enough, you are still scrubbing speed off (and maybe braking AS WELL), so any collision is at a slower relative speed.

Also, a car set to oversteer at 'the limit' will be much more lethal in straight line emergency stops, which might catch you out, and really nasty during tyre blowouts.

The manufacturers give understeer for a reason. And it's not cost. The very fact you had an accident with understeer leads me to believe that the last thing you need is a VASTLY more complex vehicle behaviour to contend with.

So what makes you think that you could catch/control oversteer if you couldn't feel/control the understeer early enough to avoid an accident?

My Clio understeers quite badly in the wet so I know not to push the front too hard coming into corners.

Having a cars balance set more towards oversteer would be stupid IMO. Would make accidents a lot more violent, at least if you skid off the road head on into a tree there is a lot more to crumple and protect the passengers. Head off the road side ways there isn't much to crumple before you become part of the car.

Understeer is a lot more controllable IMO and especially for people who are novices when it comes to car control.

edit/ Bah Tristan beat me to it

So, what kind of car you had then?

I reckon you would still have hit the pickup if the car was set to slight oversteer in the wet, only you'd probably have been going a bit quicker and sideways, or backwards, or hit something else.

Better get car that talks instead of one that does not give feedback of grip. RWD cars are lot better than FWD cars in this aspect if we look average cars, also older cars are better than new as at some point some idiot got idea that car should not give feedback but give you impression that you are in sofa of your livingroom.

Drive safely, don't go near limits on public roads

I've got a 98 Subaru Outback. It actually gives GREAT feedback on dry roads. You feel a lot more through the steering wheel than my dad's Audi (which feels like it's set in goop.) I know that you can tell when you are approaching the limit of understeer a lot more easily, the thing is that at least with my car, in the wet, there is very little way to tell what is going to happen at all. The big problem is that different wet road surfaces have different levels of grip, and this one was not very grippy at all. The car just LET GO out of nowhere, and even as I slowed, it didn't re-grip at all.

I actually think that the problem was the tires. The car understeered VERY badly, but maybe I shouldn't be mad at the manufacturer. I don't think it was supposed to be that pronounced. The rear tires have a lot more tread than the fronts do. I'm going to have them rotated as soon as possible. Still, while I know that oversteer is VERY dangerous, and that it's not as simple as catching the car and not over correcting, I would rather that the accident by my fault at not being able to save a spinning car, than it being my fault because I couldn't turn sharp enough because Subaru thinks that that is the safe limit for my driving level...

You shouldn't be mad at the manufacturer because you were going too quickly on a wet road, not because Subaru 'built in' understeer. If you went straight instead of around the bend, you were going too quickly, plain and simple.

Also one other thing, if there had been accident there, oil and gasoline tend to stick on road quite long time (even year if enough bad) then at rain road becomes very slippery.

I have drifted with 82hp/1400kg car at roundabout without intention to do so as there was wet weather and petrol/oil on road, luckily steering tells exactly how much grip there is and at time rear wheels come to spot I'm already prepared

That does not stop me being foolish of course. Almost missed turn at intersection recently, I did drove bit fast to intersection and I felt it was really slippery, when I tried to slow down tires just locked up, no grip at all, quickly I then shifted weight to LF tire (needed to turn right) and gave quick pull of handbrake to it, dropped clutch and used loud pedal to keep angle right, luckily there was just enough space so I made that turn, car that followed behind (driving very carefully) did not make that turn. -2, icy road and it had rained water just before.

More of luck in there as I had no any chance to control my speed, should really take bit easier sometimes :P

Edit: BTW, isn't Outback AWD? With those understeer is killed by left foot braking, just put bit brake on and use loud pedal to turn, you can also make quick flick of steering wheel if not going to listen, after that it is four wheel drift heaven
Works with FWD too, but not so well as rear wheels just are there.

Perhaps you were also steering too much. If your fronts are worn that much, then that'd be my guess. Slow down, get the car turned, then accelerate, and not only would be be faster, you'll wear the tyres less, and be at a slightly slower speed on corners where pedestrians lurk.

Quote from MAGGOT :

You shouldn't be mad at the manufacturer because you were going too quickly on a wet road, not because Subaru 'built in' understeer. If you went straight instead of around the bend, you were going too quickly, plain and simple.

I am not at all "mad" at the manufacturer for my accident. I know very well that regardless of how bald my tires are, or how much ice was on the road, or whether or not someone rigged my car to not turn right, it was my fault for not being prudent. My argument is not that SUBARU RIGGED MY CAR, THAT'S WHY I CRASHED. The crash was 120% my fault. I was just saying, that I would prefer that my car allowed me to take it as far as I felt necessary, not as far as the manufacturer felt was safe.

It's really the same thing as my saying that the speed limits on public roads should be raised by 30 mph. They shouldn't be, because speed limits are decided upon with the weakest link in mind. That 55 mph speed limit was chosen because anyone who passed their driving test will be relatively safe at that speed. Sure, the limit could be 90 and the upper 10% of drivers would be just as safe, but that's not good for the other 90.

I understand fully the reason behind understeer in cars, and I'm not saying that manufacturers should change their tactics - it's a great safety feature - I was just wondering if anyone else here preferred a bit of oversteer in their personal vehicles or not.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

I would rather that the accident by my fault at not being able to save a spinning car, than it being my fault because I couldn't turn sharp enough because Subaru thinks that that is the safe limit for my driving level...

Just to let you know - if a car understeers or oversteers its still your fault, your driving too fast for conditions. Yes in rain roads are a bit slicker and your more likely to slide - hence why in rain / heavy rain you don't go the speed limit, you drive under it. Think of rain as snowy conditions, in snow there are times where 10mph is lightning speed for the conditions, and it doesn't matter if you have natural understeer or oversteer in your vehicle. Also natural understeer is easier to catch in almost all cases that I can think of. Just pump the brakes so they don't lock OR if your car has an ABS system then just stand on the brakes, lessen the turn and you avoided the collision, or at the very least slowed down. In an oversteery car you would need to apply a small amount of throttle to transfer the weight to the rear tires and this would NOT be your reaction to sliding toward other cars or tress etc... So when you hit the brakes it makes the situation entirely worse and your spinning.

Drive WAY below the limits on the street!

I like provoking oversteer when I want it, now and again (but not as far as 'drifting' before you all start ). But I wouldn't want a car that tends towards oversteer in an emergency - that's just asking for death/crippling.

Quote from tristancliffe :

But I wouldn't want a car that tends towards oversteer in an emergency - that's just asking for death/crippling.

Agreed, natural reaction wouldn't be to hit the gas...

Quote from tristancliffe :

I like provoking oversteer when I want it, now and again (but not as far as 'drifting' before you all start ). But I wouldn't want a car that tends towards oversteer in an emergency - that's just asking for death/crippling.

I fully agree, on public roads you could quickly get into trouble if car has tendencity to oversteer, car should manage situation where something jumps to your lane and you have to make instant dodge to other lane, without too much tail catching.

On track neutral-bit oversteering is then quite good thing.

But I must say, massive understeer and if you can't do much about it (like in FWD) is really problematic too. Maybe fiddling a bit with tire pressures and choosing different tires to front could help with that and if not then adding bit more camber if possible, but you should stay on safe side, rightmost pedal is for oversteering

Yea, that is true. Which is all the more reason why I think defensive driving courses should be required for all drivers before they get their license - so that at least people have less of a tendency towards the "wrong" reactions in their cars.

But yea JTbo, that was my issue. It wasn't slight understeer, it was MASSIVE understeer, which I think was VERY dangerous, but that probably has more to do with my tires than anything. But I kind of want to go to an empty parking lot now and just see if it understeers that bad in the dry too, because if it does, then something is terribly wrong, because it is WAY too much to be safe.

Well it might be worth investing in a decent set of tyres, if you have got the car 2nd hand, or have ever had to replace the tyres at a garage then they probably stuck budget ones on. Get some proper tyres, they make a huge difference, dents your wallet a bit though. But as these guys said, drive slower. I guess you know that now, it is easy to get caught out, whatever anyone says on here they have probably had one of those 'shit too fast' moments.

Well, actually, that is what surprised me. I got it from my dad, and he supposedly bought 4 GOOD tires (like 5 stars for everything.) But I really think that they aren't anymore... lol. It's almost time for new tires. I'll have them rotated, but the fronts don't really have that much tread left anyway (and usually, on a Subaru, ALL the tires have to be within 1/16").

Also remember that don't use tires that are made 5 years ago or so, they are not same tires anymore even there would be thread left.

2-3 years from manufacturing and best of tires features have gone already even if you had not used them!

I don't think you'd ever want oversteer in a road car. LESS understeer could be good though (for spirited driving).

Quote from JTbo :

Also remember that don't use tires that are made 5 years ago or so, they are not same tires anymore even there would be thread left.

2-3 years from manufacturing and best of tires features have gone already even if you had not used them!

What changes on tires that are a few years old, even if there is plenty of tread left? It may be incentive for a new set...

Anyone here watch 'The Garage' on Discovery (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNfBDCgSTA). Cos its time for a Jock like lesson on tires...

When you buy new tires, they arent F**ked

After a few years they are slightly F**ked

When they Burst they are completely F**ked.


Simple

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

What changes on tires that are a few years old, even if there is plenty of tread left? It may be incentive for a new set...

Rubber changes when time passes, faster in direct sunlight, bit slower in dark storage, but rubber will harden and loose flexibility, which means loss of grip and handling characteristics.

Make sure that when you buy tires, those are not very old, I know cases where 5 years old tires are sold new, even those start to be in condition where I'm not putting them under the car anymore.


If it is black and round, it does not mean it is good

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

I'll have them rotated, but the fronts don't really have that much tread left anyway (and usually, on a Subaru, ALL the tires have to be within 1/16").

I never ever let the fronts have less tred than the rears, thats asking for trouble personally think that is all your problem was. Low tred on the fronts in the wet means they probably aquaplaned on a slightly oily surface.