@Ian: The crunch point is however, that the tyre physics are the most important part; they are the very core feature of any racing simulation. Without this part being right, you can have as much realism slapped on your simulator, it will never be good - which is IMO pretty much the case/problem with all ISI engine based sims.

I also think that all the people saying there is nothing better than LFS are well aware that this mainly regards the tyre physics, and that there are several areas where other simulations excel. That said, there is nothing better than LFS, if your main point of concern is the overall package with heavy weight on the tyre physics. If all you want is to pretend to be Schumacher racing in a "real" F1 car on a "real" track, then by all means rFactor & Co. are a better choice. Or one could argue the tyre physics of nKP are more realistic, but even if they are, everything else around it is simply so awful (including minimalistic software and the attitude of its devs) that LFS comes out top again.

@Hyperactive: You make it sound like I support all these arcade features
The only thing I support is to introduce options where sensible

Quote from AndroidXP :

@Hyperactive: You make it sound like I support all these arcade features
The only thing I support is to introduce options where sensible

This thread is about F9/F10 feature. When you suggested that the F9/F10 could be removed from the "hardcore mode" you didn't say why. Then you made the the rather extreme statement that "Well, I guess you could remove all HUD elements and arcade stuff, basically only leaving the hardcore mode and forcing it down everybody's throats."... A rather strong, extreme statement. I say F9/F10 is a wip feature that is not compatible with hardcore mode. Making it on/off won't solve anything.

If LFS needs some hardcore mode, it doesn't mean that things automatically get harder when you turn the hardcore mode on. Sure stuff like wings coming off from the cars, affecting to the downforce and aerodynamics can make the game harder but in the end it is not just about that. The damage engine needs to be updated along with other things to make it work, otherwise there is just a broken feature that is labelled as hardcore because it is hard. Making F9/10 on/off would create a situation just like that. When on, things are easy and still manageable. When off you don't get temperatures or tire wear indicators from anywhere. LFS doesn't model tire surface graphics-relation-to-wear (just graphics) among other things which would make things just too hard, harder than real life. There is not yet anough meat on the skeleton in LFS for the hardcore mode to be anything more than few limited options and some forced mini things...

Imho hardcore mode is not needed, arcade mode might be useful to some people (not pointing fingers towards anyone here)

EDIT: I am just trying to say that imho on/off option for F9/10 won't fix anything, or work

Err what? I think you're grossly misunderstanding me. And that "rather extreme statement" was a sarcastic comment directed towards Ian's rather strong opinion.

E: Though maybe you're right in the notion that "hardcore" mode should be default and instead a separate "arcade" mode to make quick online races more enjoyable. And please, by "hardcore" I don't mean hard, but instead something more like "serious". The physics for both modes should always be the same, just one of them has some features that allow quick and less serious racing. Or something. Egh whatever, I stand by my original point that disabling F9/F10 (or restricting them to the pits) as server option would be a good idea.

-1

Quote from AndroidXP :

Err what? I think you're grossly misunderstanding me. And that "rather extreme statement" was a sarcastic comment directed towards Ian's rather strong opinion.

E: Though maybe you're right in the notion that "hardcore" mode should be default and instead a separate "arcade" mode to make quick online races more enjoyable. And please, by "hardcore" I don't mean hard, but instead something more like "serious". The physics for both modes should always be the same, just one of them has some features that allow quick and less serious racing. Or something. Egh whatever, I stand by my original point that disabling F9/F10 (or restricting them to the pits) as server option would be a good idea.

I just wanted to add that I agree to disagree with you about the F9/10 as server side options... but I like very much of the term "serious mode". It is just far better and sounds exactly what it should stand for. Hardcore is something totally over the usable... but serious sounds very implementable

F9/10 just wouldn't work as on/off server side feature

Hardcore mode as people often mention sounds stupid imo.
An people seems to forget that it`s only a game, and are allways saying the same to new suggestion or old ones for that mather too, "It`s a racing simulator". And then everyone starts to complain that the suggestion would only end up with beeing arcade-ish since LFS is sooo realistic.

Don`t understand me wrong, I belive that games like Nr2003 and LFS are pretty close to what you may experience in real life, but it`s also important that the game never must be 100% realistic. Then we would end up with a small group of people driving, since most people want to have something challenging, but also somehow easy and fun.

And a other funny part is - how many haven`t complained about the wind when it`s hard? Go to a server, and as soon there is some hard wind people start to moan.

So in the end, I belive people should understand that LFS is a game, that is pretty close to what you MIGHT experience in real life. Still, it`s a game, with a mixture and balance between normal racing games and sim games, and the result is an game that is brilliant. The best drivers win, and to be fast you need experience, you gain something by driving those extra laps
If we now had done like Ian and other would do, ban all hud releated stuff, remove all informative keys, remove the chat ability,
Well, it wouldn`t surprise me if the players online would shrimp down to close to nothing on short time. Would that be fun?

A game is a game, if you want the real deal, don`t play the game.

Is it a sim or just a game...

I don't get all this black and white thing. It is not about hellbending hardcore or pure arcade. It is about simulation. Sure people moan always when they need to learn to do things differently. It is not about removing the chat or huds to make it real, it is about how what is implemented. The chat is a very basic feature of a online game (I said game omg ) just like the menus are. They are needed in every piece of software that has to provide some form of basic interaction between the participants. Arguments like "replacing some of the arcade stuff with more realistic is like requiring a full blown UF1 with hydraulics and whatnot to be able to play" are so wrong and not-so-funny at so many levels that I just can't do anything else than shake my head in desperation.

I understand it is just a game but it just wrecks my nerves sometimes when people have the nerve to moan about so basic features, like the speedo update or the tbo class balancing.

"It is just a game". Well, with that attitude it won't get any further than that

Quote from psychometalist :

What about having the option to disallow all the HUD and instead sending the car's telemetry to an other team member (and maybe voice chat inside LFS without 3rd party programs)? I think it will really help in team races.

Really like that idea. Maybe that can be done via Insim (or was it outsim) to an external "team manager" app. Voice chat isn't a problem, Ventrilo or TS do that just fine...

Maybe not the option to do that, but rather the option to force it. Would be great for endurance races.

+1, you really have to do it on the feel or with a good strategy...

I like the idea. =)

Quote from The Very End :

Hardcore mode as people often mention sounds stupid imo.
An people seems to forget that it`s only a game, and are allways saying the same to new suggestion or old ones for that mather too, "It`s a racing simulator". And then everyone starts to complain that the suggestion would only end up with beeing arcade-ish since LFS is sooo realistic.

Don`t understand me wrong, I belive that games like Nr2003 and LFS are pretty close to what you may experience in real life, but it`s also important that the game never must be 100% realistic. Then we would end up with a small group of people driving, since most people want to have something challenging, but also somehow easy and fun.

And a other funny part is - how many haven`t complained about the wind when it`s hard? Go to a server, and as soon there is some hard wind people start to moan.

So in the end, I belive people should understand that LFS is a game, that is pretty close to what you MIGHT experience in real life. Still, it`s a game, with a mixture and balance between normal racing games and sim games, and the result is an game that is brilliant. The best drivers win, and to be fast you need experience, you gain something by driving those extra laps
If we now had done like Ian and other would do, ban all hud releated stuff, remove all informative keys, remove the chat ability,
Well, it wouldn`t surprise me if the players online would shrimp down to close to nothing on short time. Would that be fun?

A game is a game, if you want the real deal, don`t play the game.

Have you ever agreed to a suggestion or at least contributed to it in a positive way?

First off, LfS is/tries to be more than "just a game", it tries to be a sim... The nature of a sim dictates to replicate the same challenges you'd get doing this in RL, or getting as close as possible when failing to do so... If you want "just a game", there are plenty out there for you to choose... But that's not even the point, this suggestion is for an OPTIONAL mode to cater for those who WANT those challenges!

Removing the HUD with times and lap time counters can only be a good thing in my book: racers FINALLY would care more about position and their surroundings rather than forcing a good line through various opponents to get another good time... They still would be able to see their times on LfSWorld or via a new scoreboard that's displayed at the end of the race...
Having spectators chatting to each other is fine, having an admin making an announcement to racers by hostmessage is ok, everyone chatting to each other while practice is also fine, but chatter between the participants in a race is unneccesary, so why have it...

Quote from bbman :

Have you ever agreed to a suggestion or at least contributed to it in a positive way?

First off, LfS is/tries to be more than "just a game", it tries to be a sim... The nature of a sim dictates to replicate the same challenges you'd get doing this in RL, or getting as close as possible when failing to do so... If you want "just a game", there are plenty out there for you to choose... But that's not even the point, this suggestion is for an OPTIONAL mode to cater for those who WANT those challenges!

Removing the HUD with times and lap time counters can only be a good thing in my book: racers FINALLY would care more about position and their surroundings rather than forcing a good line through various opponents to get another good time... They still would be able to see their times on LfSWorld or via a new scoreboard that's displayed at the end of the race...
Having spectators chatting to each other is fine, having an admin making an announcement to racers by hostmessage is ok, everyone chatting to each other while practice is also fine, but chatter between the participants in a race is unneccesary, so why have it...

There been a lot of suggestion I have agreed on
Still I belive that removing Hud is wrong, but again as you say, if it`s optionally, well ok I say I`m neutral on this.

I like the idea of forced shift+F mode while in a race but then I race in shift+F mode a fair bit.

The blocking of the F9+ keys for me is just part of the much needed hardore mode that would block all this sort of data, mini map etc etc.

The demand for different elements of what most agree are the "hardcore" options come up again and again. Each time one part is implemented there is a HUGE outcry asking for the the restriction to be removed. The community then adapts and we get balance again. Just look at the no reset option and the fights that caused. Thing is after each HC part comes in the racing online has got better.

I wish the devs would just implement what most agree are the hardcore options in one hit. We can then get all the fights over in one go instead of the same fights again and again as they are implemented bit by bit.

Totally disagree. F9 and F10 menu's are essential. We need to improve the racing in LFS... not add to the chaos .. but that is beside my point.

Having that option would screw us MOE drivers over good and propper... (providing that it is included and MOE decide to use it). Looking at the F9+10 menu is paramount in Endurance racing because of tyre wear. If it was used in small sprint races.. like the 5-10 lappers, then yea there wouldnt be much of an issue, however with a team of drivers, all using the same car, and therefore the same set, tyre wear will be different for each person. Basically we wouldnt be able to predict when the tyres need changing for each driver as we all have different driving styles.. some more agressive than others.

Just my 2 cents.
dan

You tell me you can't do a longrun in preparation to see how long the tyres will last and set the pitstop accordingly? Especially in a league demanding that much commitment?

okay, done enough reading.

Live for speed is a video game. ipso facto. It falls in the simulation sub-genre, but it is in fact still a game.

In order for a game to be successful there is a basic criteria it must meet. It must be fun. When it becomes a chore to play, it will no longer be a game, and nobody will want to play.

The realistic physics make it fun. The close racing makes it fun. The availability of information to learn from makes it fun. In fact just learning the "rules" of the game is in itself fun and rewarding.

If you don't like Scavier's approach to developing thier game, you're welcome to go off and go make an rFactor mod, or start programming your own. When you've made it the way YOU (realism nazi's, yes all 6 of you) want it, try to market it. I'm sure that once you do so, very few will be willing to bother with your game as it would be a CHORE.

Quote from DANDAMAN05 :

Totally disagree. F9 and F10 menu's are essential. We need to improve the racing in LFS... not add to the chaos .. but that is beside my point.

Having that option would screw us MOE drivers over good and propper... (providing that it is included and MOE decide to use it). Looking at the F9+10 menu is paramount in Endurance racing because of tyre wear. If it was used in small sprint races.. like the 5-10 lappers, then yea there wouldnt be much of an issue, however with a team of drivers, all using the same car, and therefore the same set, tyre wear will be different for each person. Basically we wouldnt be able to predict when the tyres need changing for each driver as we all have different driving styles.. some more agressive than others.

Just my 2 cents.
dan

This post is hilarious. This is exactly the reason why these features should go. Knowing exactly when you're tyres are about to blow so you can pit as late as possible, risk free, is ludicrous. The options are only essential because you have come to rely on them. You'll just have to start doing what real race teams do: gamble.

Well, I think F9/F10 are just debug/little_cheat menus of something that will come (or not?) after alpha mode, in wich lfs still is.

Imo the reason why we need to turn it off (as option at server side) is that the setups which are used, mostly from inferno, or hotlap sets are 'devil', weird and changing LFS to: "hmmm... oh, nevermind, it's fast so..."
Try to simulate the behaviour of Your road car in lfs and it will be pretty 'comunicative' and just.. normal; but it's OffTopic now