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Inaccuracies in Albert Gores movie.
2
(44 posts, started )
Quote from The Very End :I like the answer many people say : I don`t care as long as it`s something that won`t affect ME"

I think I'm the only one to declare such things. Actually, that's a paraphrase of another sentence taken from a DK song called Stars and Stripes of Corruption, "Who cares about my civil rights as long as I get paid".

Nobody had to specify in that song that the sentence was sarcastic. Given the sheer idiocy of what I wrote and the total contradiction with what I wrote in the same post I thought I should have triggered the sarcasm detector of most forum users. I acknowledge it isn't so.

My position is similar to that of SamH: noble ends, noble means. Those who are interested in astroturfing in a different direction can safely dismiss such claims as an unconvenient lie, and offer a much more convenient truth. Which would you accept?
Still. The fact you can question this theory and prove this theory wrong in many ways means that Global Warming, isn't as Global as people would want you to believe it is. Why should people make money of 'saving the planet' I rest my case. No wait I don't.

I think making a movie about global warming is sadder than making a movie about saving the dolphins. It's all just a bit inspecific to even be as imPORTANT as a movie about saving the dolphins. There is always stuff that can be countered with GW and it starts by these 'facts' which are lies of panic mongery. Also. I said (and got flamed) If you don't believe GW exists then it doesn't exist. Well, let me change the sentence. I don't waste my money or energy on 'saving the planet'. You run around like a lost duck, moaning, complaining, saving EVERY last bit of Cardboard so you can send it down to the paperbank. Who has the better life? Being Lazy is not a valued way of life but nobody dis-likes being Lazy. It's something everybody does and to try and counter that in its self is pretty 'game'

The fact Al Gore made a movie about the 'seriousness' of GW and it got owned like that, just puts it all into perspective for me. I can be ignorant and still do as much 'saving the planet' as anyone else. I still recycle what I can. I may not think GW exists on the scale that others do, but I try to make things re-useable, as it helps with Economy, and thats the last thing you want to bite back at you!
There have been few of these threads here lately. So far I haven't posted, but now I cannot keep my mouth closed anymore.

I'm not an Al Gore fan, but neither I like Bush II "the dummer".
I haven't seen the film and I rather read the scientificly trustworthy sources.

Few things, not commenting directly those points claimed to be lies in the film.

- Temperature rise would be more like a global average and local changes can be more or less severe. There are many factors which affect the local climate like geographical features and jet streams. But it is wrong way to think that my area might benefit from warmer weather, so I don't care. Especially because the exact changes can be quite hard to predict.

- Generally this means more extreme weather phenomena like hurricanes, drought and floods. Also many things which many consider permanent or at least semi-permanent can get messsed up. The El Nino/La Nina phenomenon has great effect in weather in Australia and South America (and Fishing). It could mess up the monsoon weather, which is more or less vital part of the nature e.g. in India.

- In many areas even a small rise in temperature causes changes in plants and animals. And e.g. in Europe it would mean more severe pest problem (actually we alredy see bugs not seen before)

- Many animals which are on the extreme on their living area may disappear. E.g. polar bears hunt mainly seals which need ice cover for nesting. How fast the seals and polar bears could learn to the new situation? Could be that they die complete before they adapt. In Finland we have ringed seals in lakes and many years it has had a bad reproduction year because the nests built inside snow have collapsed too early in spring.

- when sea level rises it threatens first the near sea level areas. For example many Pacific islands. Even if the islands are not complete sunken the rising sea level 'pollutes' the fresh ground water with salt. That means people have to move away. Also the rising sea level and more frequent storms start to erode the land faster and sink islands before the normal rise would sink them. (all these happening)

- Gulf stream. It makes the northen Europe warmer than what the latitude would tell. Not ice age w/o it, but it could mean same weather as nothern Canada, Alaska or Siberia. E.g. Helsinki is about as North as Anchorage in Alaska. How would we deal the increasing power demand?

- Referring to stats telling there were so much more CO2 in millions of years ago is not sound. No way the current plant and animal species or even the current human society would survive from such a change.

- Together with increased CO2 output, human cuts down forest especially in the Amazon region. So the ways to deal the CO2 becomes harder.

Global temperature has changed a lot before the man started to pollute, but it would be better not to add this human effect into the mess. Even if we couldn't decide how much human affects the climate, it certainly isn't improving it. If you see an obstacle ahead of you while driving, you start to slow down in good time - not only when you have already hit it. If you don't know when to start break, better start break right now.

We have only this one Earth. Have you really thought what we are playing with? We simply cannot lose this.
Quote from BlueFlame :Still. The fact you can question this theory and prove this theory wrong in many ways means that Global Warming, isn't as Global as people would want you to believe it is. Why should people make money of 'saving the planet' I rest my case. No wait I don't.

I think making a movie about global warming is sadder than making a movie about saving the dolphins. It's all just a bit inspecific to even be as imPORTANT as a movie about saving the dolphins. There is always stuff that can be countered with GW and it starts by these 'facts' which are lies of panic mongery. Also. I said (and got flamed) If you don't believe GW exists then it doesn't exist. Well, let me change the sentence. I don't waste my money or energy on 'saving the planet'. You run around like a lost duck, moaning, complaining, saving EVERY last bit of Cardboard so you can send it down to the paperbank. Who has the better life? Being Lazy is not a valued way of life but nobody dis-likes being Lazy. It's something everybody does and to try and counter that in its self is pretty 'game'

The fact Al Gore made a movie about the 'seriousness' of GW and it got owned like that, just puts it all into perspective for me. I can be ignorant and still do as much 'saving the planet' as anyone else. I still recycle what I can. I may not think GW exists on the scale that others do, but I try to make things re-useable, as it helps with Economy, and thats the last thing you want to bite back at you!

You're a pretty disgusting human being, huh?

'bout time I put you on the ignore list.
Quote :- Referring to stats telling there were so much more CO2 in millions of years ago is not sound. No way the current plant and animal species or even the current human society would survive from such a change.

I just referred to that because it was interesting, almost edifying to me, to see such higher CO2 concentrations as are present today. Not that I can actually really make anything out of it.

Meh. I'm fed up with being so emotional about these issues. Pretty soon, there won't be a storm, or a lack of rain, or a cloudy day spoiling your picnic which won't be blamed on global warming. People I think are starting to forget that the weather is the weather. Maybe if you've lived in Australia (or similar) for some time you already have this sense of how brutal, or how agreeable the weather can be. As I sensed with Al Gore's movie, anybody can put a big budget montage together to push any kind of message they like. Someone could come along tomorrow, string a series of shots together of folk enjoying holidays at lush tropical island resorts, languid games of summer tennis on the lawn and bikini clad supermodels drinking orange cordial from tall glasses- and proclaim that we're in a paradise. So what? These things prove nothing, they're simply opinions.

Al Gore's movie should probably be renamed A Scary Montage. If the case finally closes on GW that it's all hype (and imo, or in my head, the jury's really still out), then I sense possible irreversible damage done to the broader green movement at large.
Quote from Aquilifer :- Referring to stats telling there were so much more CO2 in millions of years ago is not sound. No way the current plant and animal species or even the current human society would survive from such a change.

Don't worry. Life on earth has seen extinctions that are far worse than Gores darkest scenario. At the end of the Permian, more than 90% of all lifeforms died. But some species survived, inherited the Earth, and flourished. (Of course, mankind might perish, but that is another matter.)
If someone can prove what is causing global warming, if it really exists, then can someone please tell me, because I'm freezing right now, and will do whatever it takes.

I'll leave my car idling. I'll go and burp some cows. I'll burn bin-bags. I don't care, just get me some global warming please.
Quote from tristancliffe :If someone can prove what is causing global warming, if it really exists, then can someone please tell me, because I'm freezing right now, and will do whatever it takes.

I'll leave my car idling. I'll go and burp some cows. I'll burn bin-bags. I don't care, just get me some global warming please.

At least try to be objective when you speak. But when that is said - I canot force you to do any changes, nor getting you beliving that there is a problem with global warming.

But I can take a statestic from Norway. Over the past years the temperature has rised with something about 2-3C. Many of you thinks - "it`s just 2C, what harm can that do?". But I tell you. When I was little one there was allways huuuge amount of snow here, from desember to far into april. But as I`m getting older, the snow seems to fade away too. Last years we have been lucky if we have had like 2 weeks with snow, before it eighter melts away or rain away.

Of course will many of you say that this is just naturally, but I think it`s a reminder that here in Norway we ain`t getting much snow where we used to get, and the ice is melting.

Now think what a couple more Celcius could do to the poles? It would all melt, and if I remember right the sea level would aprox rise with 7 meter or something. Well then we can say - goodbye to all those islands down in south.

Yes I belive in global warming. I do know that the world goes from warm times to ice ages naturally in a certain circle. But the point is that this is happening FAR too fast than it usually does. It`s not normal that the overal temperature seems to rice with some C`s on just over a 100-year span, that`s something that should take hell of a lot more time if you look on the natural way.

And a other thing, that many people seems to not understand. Even if we had completely stoped polution, there still would take like 20 years before all the polution would reach the atmosphere, so we can`t really say how bad today`s polution is before long time on the future, and if we then is ****ed, well then it`s too late allready.

I know nobody seems to take their share of the problem, and if you do you probally are thinkin - "whats the point? The little I do would not help in the big picture". Well, everything helps, and if everyone could start to follow that little rule, to reduce some polution yourselfe, I strongely belive we`re going in the right way. There is a lot of things you can do, that is easy and doesn`t costs that much. Drive with your mate to work, instead of having 1 car / person. Take the bus or something, there is a lot of things you can do.

But again, lol, if nobody else belives in glibal warming, well then just ignore it and live happely in your cave.
Quote from The Very End :At least try to be objective when you speak. But when that is said - I canot force you to do any changes, nor getting you beliving that there is a problem with global warming.

But I can take a statestic from Norway. Over the past years the temperature has rised with something about 2-3C. Many of you thinks - "it`s just 2C, what harm can that do?". But I tell you. When I was little one there was allways huuuge amount of snow here, from desember to far into april. But as I`m getting older, the snow seems to fade away too. Last years we have been lucky if we have had like 2 weeks with snow, before it eighter melts away or rain away.

Of course will many of you say that this is just naturally, but I think it`s a reminder that here in Norway we ain`t getting much snow where we used to get, and the ice is melting.

Now think what a couple more Celcius could do to the poles? It would all melt, and if I remember right the sea level would aprox rise with 7 meter or something. Well then we can say - goodbye to all those islands down in south.

Yes I belive in global warming. I do know that the world goes from warm times to ice ages naturally in a certain circle. But the point is that this is happening FAR too fast than it usually does. It`s not normal that the overal temperature seems to rice with some C`s on just over a 100-year span, that`s something that should take hell of a lot more time if you look on the natural way.

And a other thing, that many people seems to not understand. Even if we had completely stoped polution, there still would take like 20 years before all the polution would reach the atmosphere, so we can`t really say how bad today`s polution is before long time on the future, and if we then is ****ed, well then it`s too late allready.

I know nobody seems to take their share of the problem, and if you do you probally are thinkin - "whats the point? The little I do would not help in the big picture". Well, everything helps, and if everyone could start to follow that little rule, to reduce some polution yourselfe, I strongely belive we`re going in the right way. There is a lot of things you can do, that is easy and doesn`t costs that much. Drive with your mate to work, instead of having 1 car / person. Take the bus or something, there is a lot of things you can do.

But again, lol, if nobody else belives in glibal warming, well then just ignore it and live happely in your cave.

Woah, you can't take a joke can you...

Over the past years? How many? 300,000 or 3? It's quite important to state that EXACTLY, and quote your sources please.

The melting poles is in fact inaccurate. As the OP stated in his quotes, the Antarctic is actually INCREASING in icemass. The rising sea-level myth is also just that (apparently) - a myth.

How do we know it's happening faster than it should? We have zero evidence of previous short-term climatic changes, just vague pictures of changes over thousands of years, thousands of years ago. Two TOTALLY different data sets, of an accuracy that does not allow us to draw judgement based on our data taken over 30 years or so.

I had a bonfire the other day. Does it take 20 years to reach the atmosphere? I'm pretty sure I saw it merging with it AT THE TIME. So don't, please, say it takes 20 years for pollution to get 'in to the atmosphere'.

I'm not going on a bus EVER.

I like my cave. It has heating, TV, computers, racing cars, music, comfy beds, playstations... down the road (a nice twisty road, not one of these modern Roman excuses) is a Shell fuel station, which I frequent. It's really nice. I don't even like Polar Bears that much, but I don't want my children, or their children growing up in a world where Polar Bears roam the earth like Velociraptors, hunting babies. Kill 'em all now, whilst we've got the chance!!!
Quote from tristancliffe :Woah, you can't take a joke can you...

Over the past years? How many? 300,000 or 3? It's quite important to state that EXACTLY, and quote your sources please.

The melting poles is in fact inaccurate. As the OP stated in his quotes, the Antarctic is actually INCREASING in icemass. The rising sea-level myth is also just that (apparently) - a myth.

How do we know it's happening faster than it should? We have zero evidence of previous short-term climatic changes, just vague pictures of changes over thousands of years, thousands of years ago. Two TOTALLY different data sets, of an accuracy that does not allow us to draw judgement based on our data taken over 30 years or so.

I had a bonfire the other day. Does it take 20 years to reach the atmosphere? I'm pretty sure I saw it merging with it AT THE TIME. So don't, please, say it takes 20 years for pollution to get 'in to the atmosphere'.

I'm not going on a bus EVER.

I like my cave. It has heating, TV, computers, racing cars, music, comfy beds, playstations... down the road (a nice twisty road, not one of these modern Roman excuses) is a Shell fuel station, which I frequent. It's really nice. I don't even like Polar Bears that much, but I don't want my children, or their children growing up in a world where Polar Bears roam the earth like Velociraptors, hunting babies. Kill 'em all now, whilst we've got the chance!!!

My sources are from Dicovery Channel and such.
And btw, are you completely retarded?
Think a little before you write please, you know that scientist easely can see what temperatures compared to today it was for looooooooong time ago. They can take analyzes of ice to check it, they can look at rock walls / mud walls, and out from the layers they can determ how the climate was at that time, and THERFOR they can compare and see whats have happend lately and then.

And, how can the ice mass increas when everyone else sais it doesn`t?
There have been a lot of studies on the poles over the years, and they are all saying the same - the poles are melting, even if you like it or not.
And the rising sea is not a myth eighter, but you have to have in mind that the pole have to completely melt for the osean to rise that much.


Edit : and no, I can`t take a joke, well maybe I can, maybe not, but from you... naaah


Edit 2 : When I said it takes long time for polution to reach atmosphere, I mean polution generally, not just like Co2. There is a lot of different polution types, and some takes ages to reach the atmoshpere.
Gore, Nobel Peace Prize 2007. Just as worthy as Kissinger (that is, completely unworthy)? Only the future will tell.
Quote from Albieg :Gore, Nobel Peace Prize 2007. Just as worthy as Kissinger (that is, completely unworthy)? Only the future will tell.

Bah..was about to post that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7041082.stm

Don't know if he deserved it, and don't know if the things he says are true. But I do think that is stupid to be wasteful and harm the nature, it's just plain ignorance.
#38 - Nobo
Quote from tristancliffe :

The melting poles is in fact inaccurate. As the OP stated in his quotes, the Antarctic is actually INCREASING in icemass. The rising sea-level myth is also just that (apparently) - a myth.





measured with laser-altimetrie by Andrew Shepherd University of Edinburgh.

And also you have it for greenland. Th straight line in the second image connects over 2 years at the same point in the year.


Published in Science

Rising sea level?



Douglas 1997
Quote from Blackout :

Don't know if he deserved it, and don't know if the things he says are true.

I just mean that Nobel Peace Prizes are always political since they are awarded to give particular attention to some issues, but they are in some cases utterly undeserved.

For instance people do commemorate 9/11 but they always forget the other 9/11: Chile 1973.

After General Pinochet assumed power, U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told U.S. President Richard Nixon that the U.S. "didn't do it," but "we helped." (referring to the coup itself).

Gore will have another tremendous boost in popularity for getting the Nobel but I have good reasons to be wary, especially for his penchant for censorship (anyone remember the PMRC spearheaded by his wife with his not so silent support?) Only the future will tell.
Quote from The Very End :Think a little before you write please, you know that scientist easely can see what temperatures compared to today it was for looooooooong time ago. They can take analyzes of ice to check it, they can look at rock walls / mud walls, and out from the layers they can determ how the climate was at that time, and THERFOR they can compare and see whats have happend lately and then.

Exactly. They take a snapshot every 10,000 years and compare that to data taken every year. See how that isn't comparable?

Let's use a waveform as an example.

First off, the ice cores waveform. Plotted with a long time between each sample (you cannot measure the atmospheric conditions on an annual basis), you end up with a waveform. Zoom in on that waveform from the data taken and it'll just be a smooth line joining one data point to another, probably over 1000 years apart.

Now look at reality. We only have accurate data for the last, what, 30 years? So we're already zoomed in on our waveform, and it goes up and down a lot. Zoom out, and we basically have a dot.

How can you compare a dot (a snapshot in time, being now) to changes over thousands of years?

Simply, we don't have anywhere near enough data to compare ice samples properly. All we can say is at some point in the past there was more or less 'stuff' in the air. We can't do rates of change per year, or anything useful with it.


The other points in my post were taken from the first post - icecaps increasing etc. I have no data to back that up or otherwise, so don't take it up with me.


My personal feeling is that Man's impact on the Earth's climate is pretty negligible, and I personally have not seen any evidence whatsoever to the contrary - just a lot of blinkered opinions to suit the speakers needs (financial, political etc).
Also an interesting read about antarctic ice shelves and specifically about the effects the breaking of a huge one in 2003 had:
http://nsidc.org/iceshelves/

As many have said before - whether global warming is man-made or not has nothing to do with keeping your act clean, respectful for others and sensible.

Even simple things like installing energy saver lamps can have a major impact if done en masse. For example:

In my house I got approximately 12 lamps - using normal lamps with an average of 75W it would mean 900W consumption with all of them on. Changing to equivalent energy savers would mean 15W per bulb, ergo 1/5 of the wattage - 180W total. For an island like where I live that for numerous idiotic reasons relies mainly on petroleum for energy production the overall benefits are enormous IF everyone would wrap their head around it and go for it.
Quote from DeadWolfBones :You're a pretty disgusting human being, huh?

'bout time I put you on the ignore list.

Honestly. Why do people do that? To anyone? If you don't like someone why stop listening to what they have to say? How can you dislike someone, and not give them a chance. ****ing childish.
In my post I simple posted few facts. I have NOT seen the Gore film, nor am I very keen seeing it. However he was given the Nobel price for raising public awareness on the matter (not for his film).

Ice melting does increase water level, it's a bloody law of physics. You might think the vaporising increases too, but also the downfall would increase. Only on the areas where the ice has melted the land can raise because the ice had pushed the ground down.

Seems that certain people do not care because they haven't seen any 'hard facts' about man having impact on climate. I tryed to to explain this in a neutral fashion, but I guess it was still too complicated, so I make another comparison.

A game where you flip a coin. If you win you get some money. If you lose, you get killed. Do you want to take a chance?

I don't want to take a risk...there is just so much on stake. You have to be nuts not to care about it.
Quote from Albieg :I just mean that Nobel Peace Prizes are always political since they are awarded to give particular attention to some issues, but they are in some cases utterly undeserved.

I actually didn't meant to quote you that much, but yes, I think you are right. It gives more attention to the issue, and the other hand Gore is the one who made such a huge fuss about the whole thing.

And everyone, you can say it, Tristan is an idiot. No need to hide it.
2

Inaccuracies in Albert Gores movie.
(44 posts, started )
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