I have heard that in real life F1 cars do not have a reverse. Is this true? If so, why is it in LFS?

They do have a reverse gear iirc.

Proof...

Yeah they do have reverse, but (IIRC) when Sato spun his Honda in qualifying at Melbourne a couple of years ago the team had to tell him how to engage reverse gear over the radio because he didn't know how to do it.

It is in the regulations that they must have a working reverse gear.

Ah, okay, thanks for the feedback. I got the fact from my dad and just proved him way wrong.

Thanks again!

Got a feeling in the past they did'nt have a reverse gear ? Not entirely certain, but i think it was back with "manual" gearbox's, (ie a gear stick).

Maybe i'm wrong, dunno, but i seem to remember they didnt have them to save that last little ounce of weight !

Will have to look into the history of F1 rules to check (sounds like fun)




Edit: Here you go, reverse gears became mandatory in 1968 (i thought it was a bit later than that actually)
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/safety.html

How do they actually activate it? I doubt by just pulling the paddle shifter while in N

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Edit: Here you go, reverse gears became mandatory in 1968 (i thought it was a bit later than that actually)
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/news/safety.html

AFAIK they've pretty much always had a reverse gear, certainly GPL and all its mods had a reverse and the GPL community scrutinize everything for historical accuracy right down to the last nut and bolt so there's little chance they'd have missed such a major detail. The reverse gear is usually designed to be a light and compact as possible and is not designed to ever be used, because of this they are never normally used, we always push our single seaters back, they tend to be rather fragile and often fail.

F1's have a reverse gear, but AFAIK they're not allowed (or weren't, at least) to use it on the track or in the pits, except in case of emergency. Mansel was black flagged (in 89) because he used it in the pits (and then he didn't see the black flag and kept going).

Quote from deggis :

How do they actually activate it? I doubt by just pulling the paddle shifter while in N

That's actually a good question, I was wondering this myself.

Deggis - I think the system varies, but it usually has either its own button, or a button combination like you suggested.

Mazz - Technically the regulations for Formula One have always required a reverse gear. But some teams might have, occasionally, forgotten to put them in now and again to save a few grams. And if they needed it in that situation then they could always just say "it broke".

This is according to various interviews and biographies I've read - they might not be true, but I wouldn't put it past them

Quote :

..And if they needed it in that situation then they could always just say "it broke".

Wayta lie straight to the officials face I found that amusing.

Quote from LazLoW :

That's actually a good question, I was wondering this myself.

N is already a separate button itself, you can't go lower than 1st paddling down, so R being the left paddle while at neutral is probable. Maybe "click it twice" or "hold for a while" for extra safety

Its not going to be the same generic setting for each car anyway, so every team will have a different system, as a way to engage reverse gear.

From 2007 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations

"9.4 Reverse gear:
All cars must have a reverse gear operable any time during the
Event by the driver when the engine is running."

on a side note, I'd not realised this:
"All cars must be fitted with a means of disengaging the clutch for a
minimum of fifteen minutes in the event of the car coming to rest with
the engine stopped. This system must be in working order
throughout the Event even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or
electrical systems on the car have failed.
In order that the driver or a marshal may activate the system in less
than five seconds, the switch or button which operates it must:
- face upwards and be recessed into the top of the survival cell no
more than 150mm from the car centre line ;
- be designed in order that a marshal is unable to accidentally reengage
the clutch ;
- be less than 150mm from the front of the cockpit opening ;
- be marked with a letter "N" in red inside a white circle of at least
50mm diameter with a red edge."

I thought the N meant a control to force neutral, not the disengagement of the clutch!

Quote from tristancliffe :

From 2007 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations

"9.4 Reverse gear:
All cars must have a reverse gear operable any time during the
Event by the driver when the engine is running."

on a side note, I'd not realised this:
"All cars must be fitted with a means of disengaging the clutch for a
minimum of fifteen minutes in the event of the car coming to rest with
the engine stopped. This system must be in working order
throughout the Event even if the main hydraulic, pneumatic or
electrical systems on the car have failed.
In order that the driver or a marshal may activate the system in less
than five seconds, the switch or button which operates it must:
- face upwards and be recessed into the top of the survival cell no
more than 150mm from the car centre line ;
- be designed in order that a marshal is unable to accidentally reengage
the clutch ;
- be less than 150mm from the front of the cockpit opening ;
- be marked with a letter "N" in red inside a white circle of at least
50mm diameter with a red edge."

I thought the N meant a control to force neutral, not the disengagement of the clutch!

Nope!

I wouldn't have thought F1 cars could reverse. I wonder if they squeal as loud as road cars do when they reverse

Quote from mcintyrej :

I wouldn't have thought F1 cars could reverse. I wonder if they squeal as loud as road cars do when they reverse

I thought F1 used straight-cut gears for forward as well?

Quote from tristancliffe :

It is in the regulations that they must have a working reverse gear.

It is in the regulations that they must have a reverse gear, the 'working' part seems to be new, i'm not 100% that this is in fact in the regulations. It always used to be that they built the reverse gear so light and fragile that more often than not the gear was no longer working by the time the cars got onto the start grid at the beginning of the race. Has this changed?

Quote from mcintyrej :

Nope!

I wouldn't have thought F1 cars could reverse. I wonder if they squeal as loud as road cars do when they reverse

The 'squeal' is because the gears are straight-cut. All F1 gears (indeed, ALL racing gears) are straight-cut for efficiency, so yes it will squeal. Not that you'd be able to hear it.

Quote from bbman :

I thought F1 used straight-cut gears for forward as well?

Of course they do. Name one decent race car that uses helical gears?

Quote from Becky Rose :

It is in the regulations that they must have a reverse gear, the 'working' part seems to be new, i'm not 100% that this is in fact in the regulations. It always used to be that they built the reverse gear so light and fragile that more often than not the gear was no longer working by the time the cars got onto the start grid at the beginning of the race. Has this changed?

I quote the regulations above. The 'working' part has been there since 1992 when I did a project at school on F1 I even got the FIA regulations personally from Peter Collins when he was at Lotus, lots of Lotus stickers and signed photos... all for the cost of a 5 mile cycle ride
As for if the strength has changed, I wouldn't know of course. But there have a few examples of F1s reversing in the last few years, but maybe they were just the lucky ones. But as reverse isn't a constant mesh gear, it undergoes no wear or load except when selected.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I thought the N meant a control to force neutral, not the disengagement of the clutch!

I think it probably does, in reality it has exactly the same effect in terms of removing a car from the circuit and I doubt these kind of rules are actually enforced to the letter.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Of course they do. Name one decent race car that uses helical gears?

That was a broad hint for mc, not a real question...

Yeah i'm sure you're all right about them always being there.

I guess i thinking along the lines of, "what was going on with the cars/teams if a specific regulation had to be implemented in 68" ? And Colin Chapmans compulsive obsession with reducing weight (i.e even removing parts of the bodywork).

Who really knows what was going on behind closed garage doors !

Mind you there's even a regulation that says the driver must be sat down facing forward !!


pic showing regulation of reverse gear in 1968, for those too lazy to read the full page as posted above by me

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Mind you there's even a regulation that says the driver must be sat down facing forward !!

Omg....

Lol.

I think it's kind of stupid in the regulations to have a reverse gear, so they put a shitty one in that doesn't work. If it doesn't work then why is it in the regulations? They must have updated them so it definatly works when you need it, not a fault due to the obsession of saving weight.

Quote from LazLoW :

I think it's kind of stupid in the regulations to have a reverse gear, so they put a shitty one in that doesn't work. If it doesn't work then why is it in the regulations? They must have updated them so it definatly works when you need it, not a fault due to the obsession of saving weight.

It does work, it's just not designed for continuous use.