Quote from DeadWolfBones :

* Pit speed limiter is no longer required until the final sector of the lap prior to the restart. When the leader enters the final sector, he must engage the pit limiter. All cars behind must close the gap (but still leave room to the car ahead) and also engage their limiters. At this time the SC will drive off. The green will come out when the leader enters the S/F straight. Though there will be no limiter required prior to this final sector, the SC will run on its limiter, so you must drive intelligently and without excess testosterone. Just be smart, people.

Rev limiter was introduced because drivers were bumping into each other too often - we've had some amount of debate about how bothersome that was and I don't think changing it would be a good idea. We have much less bumping going on now, but it still occurs. With the limiter off, the chances will only increase and some ppl are simply not able to keep slow pace manually in a safe manner.

I would rather see the rule as it currently is - but with the addition of forced limiter during the entire last sector.

I gotta agree with NIKI here, you flip your can and up on on your lid your done for the day. So are you saying that I should be able to reset after running out of fuel too? Theoretically, the push car should come out and push the car out of fuel the pits and he can continue after refueling.

DNFs should be placed based on the number of laps (or elapsed time) completed period.

Ok, so...

In general, everyone seems cool with the 90% DNF rule.

In general, there seems to be a lot of concern over the flip/reset rule.

Do you guys want a poll on the latter?

Options would be like so:

1. No reset. A flip is a DNF.
2. Resets as described in rule change. Penalty is a specific number of laps.
3. Resets as described in rule change. Penalty is a specific number of minutes.

I have been re-thinking the 90% rule myself aswell. As stu said, it's not right to reward teams just for being fast even though they have not completed the 4 hours of racing. But it's not fair to disqualify a team that has raced so close to the 4 hours to DNF right outside the pit lane... thats what the 90% rule is for, not penalising slow teams, but benefiting teams that have run the race for so close to the 4 hours just to DNF on the last few laps.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Ok, so...

In general, everyone seems cool with the 90% DNF rule.

In general, there seems to be a lot of concern over the flip/reset rule.

Do you guys want a poll on the latter?

Options would be like so:

1. No reset. A flip is a DNF.
2. Resets as described in rule change. Penalty is a specific number of laps.
3. Resets as described in rule change. Penalty is a specific number of minutes.

My choices would be:

1) Flip = DNF. No different than out of gas.

2) Flip = out of gas = 30 minute pentaly. You can keep racing, but points (as they are now) are out of the question.

3) Flip = out of gas = 3-5 laps. You could make the points, but it would be extremely difficult.

I would be fine with 1) or 2).

You would need to run the poll allowing the user to Pick Multiple Choices btw.

Quote from srdsprinter :

My choices would be:

1) Flip = DNF. No different than out of gas.

2) Flip = out of gas = 30 minute pentaly. You can keep racing, but points (as they are now) are out of the question.

3) Flip = out of gas = 3-5 laps. You could make the points, but it would be extremely difficult.

I would be fine with 1) or 2).

I understand your desire to be harsh on those who flip. However, you have to realize that a large percentage of flips in LFS are fairly gentle and don't result in any serious damage. Should those be penalized with 30 minute delays as well as the sort of car-destroying/chassis-bending wrecks I'm pretty sure you're thinking about?

In a word, yes.

If you make a mistake, pushing past the limit in an endurance race, you deserve to be punished... harshly.

If you are driving without enough room for error that you risk flipping in a Endurance race, you deserve to be punished.

Endurance is a skill, a balancing act. You flip, you lack balance.

Edit - It isn't about the damage, its about respecting the idea that to finish first, first you have to finish. That means not driving 110% every lap with your hair on fire, not making mental errors.

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the 90% rule. Any team that does not cross the finish line should not be allowed to place higher than someone who did.

This is a time based race, not a lap based race. If your not in the race the full 4 hours you should not be allowed to finish ahead of someone who completes the full 4 hours.

Quote from bdshan :

DNFs should be placed based on the number of laps (or elapsed time) completed period.

Quote from bdshan :

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the 90% rule. Any team that does not cross the finish line should not be allowed to place higher than someone who did.

This is a time based race, not a lap based race. If your not in the race the full 4 hours you should not be allowed to finish ahead of someone who completes the full 4 hours.

Change of heart?

Do you think that a team that completes, say, 199 laps of 200 (but runs out of fuel on the last lap, or is involved in an accident while racing for the win) should be classified behind a team who completes 170 laps?

I don't think you understood his first quote,

DNF's should be placed (amoungst themselves) based of laps or time done.

Again, a 4 hour race has to have judgment, risk. If you're going to race that hard for the win, you have to be willing to accept the Risk of what could happen.

I figured it was something like that, but (as we're all finding out) you have to be very specific in discussions about rules.

It just seems a bit strange to me to harp on the races being about endurance, but to view endurance as time only. Endurance is also distance, and if one car's gone 199 laps and DNF'd and another goes 170 and finishes... well, the first car has endured a lot more miles than the second.

But the race (nay, the Series) is judged as a 4 hour timed race.

The point is to endure a set amount of time (4 hours). If you can drive fast but cannot endure till the end how are you better than someone who actually does endure the 4 hours?

The winner of an endurance race is the car that covers the most distance in the time alotted, no?

The winner is the one has Finished the amount of time with the most laps.

Relate back to our discussion about more laps but dnf (dread).

Quote from bdshan :

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the 90% rule. Any team that does not cross the finish line should not be allowed to place higher than someone who did

I agree - a slow team can just as easily work their butts off to make sure they finish the race. Endu racing isn't just about driving, but also about strategies and preparations to make sure all 4 hours can be completed. Who's to judge that a slower team can't work out a better strategy than a faster team (who happen to not to be able to finish)?

DNF rankings should be dealt with amongst other DNF teams - after the teams who finished.

Regarding 30 min penalty. I agree that we should have severe penalties for someone driving a bit too recklessly - but what if a car flip because f someone else, but no marshals saw it? Sometimes a car can also flip because the driver went a tiny bit off line (like @ Blackwood chicane), but not because they were pushing it too hard.

I think 30 mins is too much. My vote goes for 5 mins maximum if it was a solo incident.

If other car(s) were involved, then 15 min penalty, after the race have finished.

There is precedent for both ways of doing things. ALMS, for instance, places DNFs amongst finishers in order of laps completed (as do lots of other American series like NASCAR, CCWS, IRL, etc). I believe several European series do not.

The 24 Hours of Le Mans doesn't. The 24 Hours of Daytona does.

It could easily go other way (and does, all the time, in real life). It's definitely not clear-cut.

R4ptor -

The trouble with that is IRL, if someone flips you, you are done. They could get penalized, but your both Out.

F1RST got taken out because of a chicane incident that their driver did not avoid. That's tough, but that's real racing.

Edit 2 -> Again, if its by yourself, and you push to the point where you risk flipping, you deserve to be DNF. Its a 4 hour race, and your driving beyond your limits.

24 hr N-ring race, you gotta cross the line after 24 hrs. Again, its not just one way.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Change of heart?

Do you think that a team that completes, say, 199 laps of 200 (but runs out of fuel on the last lap, or is involved in an accident while racing for the win) should be classified behind a team who completes 170 laps?

No change of heart. No DNF should be placed ahead of someone who crosses the finishline, not matter how many laps have been completed. You run of of fuel on the last lap you can't cross the finish line. That is unless the push car comes out or another car pushes you across the line. If you are racing for the win in the closing laps but push too hard and crash, pucture a tire, or run out of fuel you deal with the consequences. Getting across the finish line is what matters.

DNFs should be placed after everyone who crosses the finishline based on race elapsed time at the time of their catostrophic failure.

I hope I clarified by position.

Rules - nobody likes them, but you gotta have 'em.

I think some of you are forgetting something. This is a game and it is done for entertainment.

Making severe consequences for wrecking is good. It is important to reward sane driving and realistic racing. However, if you put in weeks of personal time, practicing, tweaking sets, testing tires, etc, and you get punted in turn 1 and end up on your roof, well, that just sucks. I would highly consider not putting in all that effort next time. I do realize that this is "real". But ask any driver and team in any racing series, and they will tell you the worst thing is having something like this happen. If they could change this they would. Also note that consequences like this do NOT stop them from happening in the first place. Dumb turn 1 accidents still happen even though nobody on the grid wants them to happen. (I know we are not talking just about turn 1 here, but it is a good example)

In a simulation, we have the ability to make some adjustments here to insure that everybody has a fair chance of winning, and everybody has a fair chance to have fun AND it is fair and balanced.

Take the XRR getting stuck in the sand with no damage. Should they be a DNF? In real life, I have seen hundreds of situations where cars stuck in the gravel getting pushed out by the marshals and they are allowed to continue if their cars can get back to the pits. There is a penalty because of lost laps, but they can still finish the race. This weekend's F1 race was a prime example. Lewis Hamilton kept racing and almost finished in the points after ending up in the gravel trap.

We know that the XRR getting stuck is probably more realistic than the FXR always getting out of the sand. But this league allows the push car to get cars out of the traps. Why is an unrealistic roll over caused by a curb any different? Yes, the car gets damaged, but I have seen many times where a car rolls, ends up on its wheels, and finishes the race without ever pitting to fix the damage. There are simply limitations to sim racing and leagues should make rules to accommodate some of this. It is one of the things that makes sim racing fun and flexible. (The current implementation of the reset rules also make this more of an issue IMHO)

So, a car that ends up on its roof should be treated like a car in the sand. They should be able to continue, but they will pay a price by a reasonable delay in the pits.

Bones is right about the finishing order. ALMS counts how many laps you have done over the time period and uses that to determine finishing position. To me, this makes more sense than DNF. If I have driven more miles than another competitor, then I should be placed higher overall than that other car. If I am a strange person, I could park my car in the pits after the first lap, leave the pits and finish the last lap, and be placed above a car that got crashed out (so damaged that they can't get to the pits) but finished hundreds of laps. Is that reasonable and fair?

I applaud what the IGTC team is trying to do here. Make a realistic endurance league that is fun and challenging. It is good that they have asked our opinion on the rules changes, but ultimately, it is up to them to decide. If you don't like the decision, find another series. Rule making is very difficult and things have to be spelled out precisely. There are always little things that leak through the cracks. Everybody just has to deal with it and realize that common sense and fair play must take precedence over splitting hairs on the rules.

Sorry about the long post

Sorry but your off the mark imo.

You have to set yourself to drive within the limitations of your surrounding present.

In LFS now, the limitations are of the curbing can easily flip you. Why not just sacrifice .1 second per lap and drive safely? That is the Real thing to do.

If you abuse the curbs and flip, you face the consequence of a DNF.

If you don't make a stand, you get glorified hotlapping for 4 hours. Endurance racing take pace strategy and compromise.

I'm in agreement with pretty much everything Eric said there.

...as if you couldn't tell from my other posts.

I agree with Eric's gist but (trying to be concise):

By aiding drivers who err due to being under-prepared or pushing too hard, you risk undermining the teams that prepare and push within the limits of what is reasonable for endurance type racing.

Quote from srdsprinter :

I agree with Eric's gist but (trying to be concise):

By aiding drivers who err due to being under-prepared or pushing too hard, you risk undermining the teams that prepare and push within the limits of what is reasonable for endurance type racing.

I think that you're pushing the "under-prepared or pushing too hard" thing. This may be the case at times, but there are plenty of accidents that happen to well-prepared teams with competent, controlled drivers. The point of these changes is to make the racing more enjoyable and rewarding for everyone. I honestly don't see any danger of the league becoming "glorified hotlapping."

More rewarding for teams that make mistakes means that reward is being removed from teams who didn't make mistakes...

That's just how i see it.