First, sorry about my English.

I dont know if im wrong, but I think that team Scavier, even they are the most talented developers team I´ve ever seen, it´s possible they has too many work in LFS for just only 3 developers. There is any possibility that in near future, Scavier Team let community help him in any of the areas LFS is working on? The new sounds in patch W is an example, but I think community can be a great help too in texturing, modeling new cars and tracks... etc.

Thanks for all, and GREAT WORK Scavier, you are the best of all time!

I think the general consensus is that Scawen doesn't want (or need) anyone helping him program.

That said, I think that Elektric Kar's updated track textures are outstanding, and should be the defaults that ship with LFS. Ditto for some of the interior textures that other users have made (though, these might be obsolete when Patch Y comes out). I would really like to see these things included with LFS since they really add to the game, and since the work is already done. This would be similar to what was done with the sounds in patch W. Community generated content that is far better than what comes with the stock game (no offense to the devs).

I would also love to see the devs embrace community submitted cars and, perhaps, tracks. So long as they are of high quality, and are not trademarked or copyrighted, I think that such additions would be beneficial to everyone and would probably only need a bit of work from Scawen and/or Eric to get the models into LFS. I really hope that the devs consider doing such a thing, but I somehow doubt it will happen.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I think the general consensus is that Scawen doesn't want (or need) anyone helping him program.

That said, I think that Elektric Kar's updated track textures are outstanding, and should be the defaults that ship with LFS. Ditto for some of the interior textures that other users have made (though, these might be obsolete when Patch Y comes out). I would really like to see these things included with LFS since they really add to the game, and since the work is already done. This would be similar to what was done with the sounds in patch W. Community generated content that is far better than what comes with the stock game (no offense to the devs).

I would also love to see the devs embrace community submitted cars and, perhaps, tracks. So long as they are of high quality, and are not trademarked or copyrighted, I think that such additions would be beneficial to everyone and would probably only need a bit of work from Scawen and/or Eric to get the models into LFS. I really hope that the devs consider doing such a thing, but I somehow doubt it will happen.

I would also love to see the devs embrace community submitted cars and, perhaps, tracks. So long as they are of high quality, and are not trademarked or copyrighted, I think that such additions would be beneficial to everyone and would probably only need a bit of work from Scawen and/or Eric to get the models into LFS. I really hope that the devs consider doing such a thing, but I somehow doubt it will happen.



Like that idea.

The problem with community submissions is, everyone wants to submit something. It might suck, it might not, but you're at a point where the Devs have to turn away content. This doesn't sit well with some people, as they take it as a slap in the face.

As is, the current process guarantees one thing. Lack of argument. Although the process is slower, it leaves less people upset due to having content turned away.

Sure, I'd love to see more OFFICIAL devs working on tracks and cars, but I don't think turning to the community would be the proper way to do this.

I would like to see the dev's accept community submitted cars and tracks along with textures and sounds, but only after S3 is done. It would also be important to not accept too many tracks and cars too often. It would over-saturate the sim, much like r-factor with a new track and car mod everyday, you have to spend 2 hours finding downloads just to go online, not to mention the different versions of every mod and track.

It would be neat if the dev's had some sort of community vote for a track or type of track, then gave a time frame for its completion and submission. After a few were submitted the community and/or devs could choose the best one. Possibly every 2 months or so. Same thing for the cars or series mods, possibly every 3-4 months. This would let everyone download each mod, keep the mods high quality and not over-saturate the sim. The devs could stay busy with bug-reports, while still getting quality additions as well as remaining in control of the sims content.

My opinion is that there's simply not enough manpower in two man dev team to fulfill the whole S3 feature list in time (meaning what everyone is expecting from it, including everything between DX10 uber gfx and a minigame for changing sparkplugs ).

For the OP idea, don't think that'd be good idea. Instead simply "hiring" more people with similar passion would be but unfortunately if the devs wanted that, they would have done it already.

I hope DaveWS will continue co-working with the sounds.

.

i think that the devs do not require any further assistance. I think that it is important to keep the game a closed system also, to discourage hacks, and stupid things like driving busses on BL rallycross and putting the video on youtube.

there are already plenty of suggestions for the improvement of the game, including car/track/feature requests, as well as bug reporting. Be patient, the devs will get to them and implement it the only way they know how - the best way.

having too many user submitted things for the game will make things too hard to keep track of, for the devs and the gamers and the add on programmers.

LFS is a fantastic PC game, and i like the way how the devs are doing their job.

the game is progressing well, and in a way that it will always have people comming back and wanting more with excitement, as shown with the release of the X patch.

Gaz00m , couldnt agree with you more, everyone gets impatatient, and those that love this game want it to achieve what it aspiring and currently is doing. Being the best online race sim (imo)

cant really say much more you nailed it on the head.

Answer:

He already does. Fans with all kinds of skills help the devs (sounds, graphics, websites, pr, setups, testing, skins, textures, etc....)

The problem is that the community improve some parts of the game (some tracks per exemple) and so, the environment is not uniform, we have differents qualities, because there is no one to generate and improve ALL textures of EACH track (except with Electricwolf), the game would be not balanced

Quote from faster111 :

I would also love to see the devs embrace community submitted cars and, perhaps, tracks. So long as they are of high quality, and are not trademarked or copyrighted, I think that such additions would be beneficial to everyone and would probably only need a bit of work from Scawen and/or Eric to get the models into LFS. I really hope that the devs consider doing such a thing, but I somehow doubt it will happen.



Like that idea.

Who are you and what have you done with faster?

I always thought that they already did. If it aint broke dont fix it.

Even though there's such a theoretical range of combinations to get to a PB on (every car x every track) it seems I'm not alone in wanting something fresh and new. What have been the macro changes to the game of late? When patch S came out we got the improved physics and the BF1. We got the improved sounds in V/W, and X has brought pre-load clutchpack and false starts. Sure, there have been a squillion other improvements but not in any area that broadly affects the user experience - and these changes span a development time of 14 months (not including the dev time for patch S).

We're all going crazy for something fresh and new, and it seems to me that we could be easily appeased with new content, and so we'd STFU to allow Scawen to work on the core game engine (collisions, engine damage, weather...). I've previously thought that user-contributed material would be a great way to go, but only if:

• Quality was controlled by a central authority (e.g. Scavier), to whom all content would have to be submitted, and may go through several iterations for testing, suitability to the game, playability etc. There would probably be a closed beta-testing group for this (beta testing an alpha product? You know what I mean....)
  
• Downloading content was integrated into the game engine, e.g. with the patch auto-updating. No hunting for patches, no worrying about new content integrity.
  
• Strict versioning control was implemented. E.g. think about the two Brands Hatch in GPL. Cosmetic differences would not be the end of the world (e.g. the SO City graphical updates) but any layout changes would be crucial to ensure every driver is using the exact same circuit. I can imagine LFS having all sorts of hideous sync errors as well if this wasn't managed properly (e.g. your version of Brands has incorrect elevation, so my car's reported position appears to be tunnelling through the solid track to you....)
  
• There was an agreed and committed release schedule. It could be as meagre as one car every six months, and one track per year. Oversaturation would be unhealthy and unnecessary. But having something - anything - we could count on to look forward to with a reasonable degree of certainty would be such a refreshing change
  
• Certainly there would be a number of keen amateurs who would jump in and have a go at submitting content. But I suspect that there are a few genuinely talented members of the community who excel and thrive at producing the desired content, and most of the hard work would come from them. So I don't think inferior quality would be an issue so long as the QA process was built in, and well documented and understood. Also the required quality would soon become evident with comparison to the stock cars and tracks plus any newly accepted material. I.e. don't even bother submitting content until it's of the same level as Blackwood
  
• This could allow LFS to further develop into its own niche, which right now feels like track-day specials and somewhat obscure regional circuits. So new cars like the DP1 would fit right in. I seriously doubt whether we would ever see our Ferraris and Porsches shipping with the stock game (although anything could happen over time, particularly if LFS' popularity continues to grow).
  
• There remains a big question about licensing. Clearly the devs can't blatantly ignore licensing issues, but possibly one workaround would be to implement various 'repositories' of content. There could be three: "core" (all the content we know and love right now), "official" which would contain community addons approved by the devs (e.g. a community created and approved fantasy track, where there are no license issues, or officially blessed ones like the DP1), and the "community" repository which is a link to only a single content source where community members can QA and approve content for download. This would have a big fat disclaimer like 'any content downloaded form the community repository is not endorsed by Scavier etc etc' but would allow us to develop things like our own Nordschleife, or the GT3RSR. Crucially, QA control, download management, versioning etc as listed above would have to be applied fiercely to this community repository as otherwise we'd be straight in to rFactor territory. Some lucky volunteer would have to step up and 'be' that community repository host, and we'd also have to appoint a QA committee to perform those tasks, as we could hardly ask Eric to adjudicate whether my copy of the Karrussel was up to the game's high standards.

If I felt I had even one iota of success in persuading Scavier to adopt this, I'd start talking about the positive reasons for doing so - that the community goodwill and patience is a finite resource and that this would be a really cheap and empowering way of further reinforcing our borderline-obsessive feelings about LFS, and that you can't ignore a certain degree of exasperation even among the die-hards that we never know what we're going to get, and when we get it, it doesn't materially affect the game we love so much. I think the model I've described would work, but who am I kidding? I can't see it ever being adopted so I'll just sit back and wait for improved GTR textures (that we can already download) and improved AI (that I don't need), and keep driving GTR at AS National along with the 5,000 others (in broad daylight).



Rakhsh

Quote from Aegilops :

...

Excellent post, unfortunately the devs don't seem to mind if we have to end up waiting 4+ more years for S3. Not that I won't keep enjoying LFS as it is in the meantime, but it's human nature to want more now rather than later.

Good post and I agree. In the long run, a sim lives trough the third party content. I am not at all against the idea that any third party content pass trough the hands of the developers before it's released though. In fact, I think that would be the best solution ever.
I am not that eager to see cars though, cause if we get proper GTR interiors and a few more types of race cars (look alike V8-Supercar, Grand-Am Prototype, LeMAns Prototype, Stock Car (Nascar) etc.) We would have more than enough to drive. The real bother is the places to drive them at.

Tracks would probably not need to be updated with changes/updates in the physics, which make them ideal as third party addons to this sim. Still... If our beloved developers say no, I will respect that and still drive this sim until my wheel brakes down.

I personally like the 'slow' development, more gets covered this way, if it was a bigger team (and worked) the job would be over sooner, we'd have S3 and that would pretty much be it, no more development. The team would then have to move to another project (wages to pay)

I think the slow development will give Scavier/the community more ideas, more perfection, more involvment.

The only thing i can see as usefull would be to sponsor a real racer who could give real feedback to the physics/wear/breakages simulation. This however would cost money, i dont think LFS generates enough income atm for that, im thinking of people like mike jordan/james kay etc.

Troy

Quote from FlintFredstone :

The only thing i can see as usefull would be to sponsor a real racer who could give real feedback to the physics/wear/breakages simulation. This however would cost money, i dont think LFS generates enough income atm for that, im thinking of people like mike jordan/james kay etc.

There are real racers in the beta-test team and other real racers playing LFS are often asked for their opinion and informations.

I totally agree with how LFS is being developed (in fact I'm intrigued by it ).
There's no doubt in my mind Scavier have the talent to do the job, and the 'closed shop' approach prevents the community turning in to one big b1tch-fight when people's content/ideas are turned down for whatever reason.

Having said that, Scawen used someone else's sound's in patch W as Cue-Ball mentioned, so I think they have left some room for compromise.

In all, yeah it will take longer to get there, but in the meantime we have a friggin' awesome sim to play and follow the development of.

Good job lads, keep doing it.

Slow and easy does it. I have VERY bad experiences when things are rushed and developers add random things just to please the community always wanting something new. I think this plus that there is basically only one developer is why LFS is such a great game.

Quote from Aegilops :

Even though there's such a theoretical range of combinations to get to a PB on (every car x every track) it seems I'm not alone in wanting something fresh and new. What have been the macro changes to the game of late? When patch S came out we got the improved physics and the BF1. We got the improved sounds in V/W, and X has brought pre-load clutchpack and false starts. Sure, there have been a squillion other improvements but not in any area that broadly affects the user experience - and these changes span a development time of 14 months (not including the dev time for patch S).

We're all going crazy for something fresh and new, and it seems to me that we could be easily appeased with new content, and so we'd STFU to allow Scawen to work on the core game engine (collisions, engine damage, weather...). I've previously thought that user-contributed material would be a great way to go, but only if:

• Quality was controlled by a central authority (e.g. Scavier), to whom all content would have to be submitted, and may go through several iterations for testing, suitability to the game, playability etc. There would probably be a closed beta-testing group for this (beta testing an alpha product? You know what I mean....)
  
• Downloading content was integrated into the game engine, e.g. with the patch auto-updating. No hunting for patches, no worrying about new content integrity.
  
• Strict versioning control was implemented. E.g. think about the two Brands Hatch in GPL. Cosmetic differences would not be the end of the world (e.g. the SO City graphical updates) but any layout changes would be crucial to ensure every driver is using the exact same circuit. I can imagine LFS having all sorts of hideous sync errors as well if this wasn't managed properly (e.g. your version of Brands has incorrect elevation, so my car's reported position appears to be tunnelling through the solid track to you....)
  
• There was an agreed and committed release schedule. It could be as meagre as one car every six months, and one track per year. Oversaturation would be unhealthy and unnecessary. But having something - anything - we could count on to look forward to with a reasonable degree of certainty would be such a refreshing change
  
• Certainly there would be a number of keen amateurs who would jump in and have a go at submitting content. But I suspect that there are a few genuinely talented members of the community who excel and thrive at producing the desired content, and most of the hard work would come from them. So I don't think inferior quality would be an issue so long as the QA process was built in, and well documented and understood. Also the required quality would soon become evident with comparison to the stock cars and tracks plus any newly accepted material. I.e. don't even bother submitting content until it's of the same level as Blackwood
  
• This could allow LFS to further develop into its own niche, which right now feels like track-day specials and somewhat obscure regional circuits. So new cars like the DP1 would fit right in. I seriously doubt whether we would ever see our Ferraris and Porsches shipping with the stock game (although anything could happen over time, particularly if LFS' popularity continues to grow).
  
• There remains a big question about licensing. Clearly the devs can't blatantly ignore licensing issues, but possibly one workaround would be to implement various 'repositories' of content. There could be three: "core" (all the content we know and love right now), "official" which would contain community addons approved by the devs (e.g. a community created and approved fantasy track, where there are no license issues, or officially blessed ones like the DP1), and the "community" repository which is a link to only a single content source where community members can QA and approve content for download. This would have a big fat disclaimer like 'any content downloaded form the community repository is not endorsed by Scavier etc etc' but would allow us to develop things like our own Nordschleife, or the GT3RSR. Crucially, QA control, download management, versioning etc as listed above would have to be applied fiercely to this community repository as otherwise we'd be straight in to rFactor territory. Some lucky volunteer would have to step up and 'be' that community repository host, and we'd also have to appoint a QA committee to perform those tasks, as we could hardly ask Eric to adjudicate whether my copy of the Karrussel was up to the game's high standards.

If I felt I had even one iota of success in persuading Scavier to adopt this, I'd start talking about the positive reasons for doing so - that the community goodwill and patience is a finite resource and that this would be a really cheap and empowering way of further reinforcing our borderline-obsessive feelings about LFS, and that you can't ignore a certain degree of exasperation even among the die-hards that we never know what we're going to get, and when we get it, it doesn't materially affect the game we love so much. I think the model I've described would work, but who am I kidding? I can't see it ever being adopted so I'll just sit back and wait for improved GTR textures (that we can already download) and improved AI (that I don't need), and keep driving GTR at AS National along with the 5,000 others (in broad daylight).



Rakhsh

Really nice post and I reall would like to see it happend but unfortunately this will be not the case....sad.

They're just being smart, and it's working so far so no need to rush things. Money keeps flowing as S2 licenses are being sold, which means that although people would like to see new things there's still a market margin for developing S2 to its final without having to add crappy untested things, but doing it the right way.

If the developement system is working, why change it? If the community were clearly fading away they would think about other formulas to attract people, but that's not the case. This means that impatient people will have a hard time waiting becuse bitching won't make the game evolve faster.

I'm totally on the devs side of closing development, as it makes the game more stable and also gets the community together, which doesn't happen with other sims open to third party content, which tend to spread people among different mods.

Anyway, a thing that I would like to see and I think that it would work, would be a "car designing contest", were people would submit their designs and if the dev team really liked one of them they would adapt it with the required stuff and put it into the game. It's not opening the game to the community, but people like these contests and they usually keep the community somehow "happy". Anyway this could not be such a great idea if people start saying "they're doing this because they're out of ideas for new cars" or start bitching like "a lot of people loved my design yet you picked one less wanted". People can be really stupid sometimes.

I say, let's just pray that the community don't die and the dev team keep their great work so we can have exciting racing for a long long time.

Everytime something like this comes up, most people favor an approval of the devs, but I don't think anyone has thought this through: If the devs have to spend time on the approval of mods, they have less time to develop... Up to the point where they only approve and don't develop any more... So the first real time to have such a system would be after S3 is out... Which is exactly the situation we're in now...

I think user submitted content is an excellent idea and is something LFS should look to consider for S2. All you really need to do is lay down a set of rules and test the content thoroughly, if its up to scratch then great release it in another mini patch, if not then sorry better luck next time.

This would eliminate issues with mismatches of content or people splitting off into mod pockets and sub communities, and if the only other issue is to hurt peoples feelings well... Just make it perfectly clear that all content must be of the highest standard and that some will not make it. Perhaps do some sort of licensing system for developers, so that people with real potential to help LFS can submit content and leave all the fly by night dreamers to rFactor

Id hate to see LFS turn into another rFactor mismatch half baked semi finished not even worthy of my bandwidth 'sim', But if done correctly and ultimately Scavier had the last say on it, I think it would be A big step for LFS.

I thought they already did let the community contribute. Albeit only the top of the line stuff (as you'd expect)

Prime example are the current sounds made by that guy (sorry, don't know his name off the top of my head)

Quote from bbman :

Everytime something like this comes up, most people favor an approval of the devs

imho the biggest problem is that with this wed only see more fictional content ... while i dont care many others do and thered be even more bitching on the forum about not having anything real in the game

lose lose lose (yes 3 times) situation really

The number of times people pull out the false dichotomy of either there will be tons of crap added or we can keep it the same as it is now is ludicrous.
Would LFS be more enjoyable with more high quality content(diverse range of cars, tracks, either licensed OR fictional)? I think it's an obvious yes. There seems to be a large amount of unused talent in the LFS user base that could be put to use to make LFS better. Wouldn't it be better for everyone involved in LFS if we found a way to harness this talent sooner rather than later?

But as has been mentioned, all we can do is sit around and see what the devs want to do with their sim.