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United States of Jesus.
(93 posts, started )
Sigh...

So as some of you know, I am a Christian; to be exact, I am Lutheran, and not ashamed as such. I go to church every week, contribute five percent of my income to the church, and participate with the fellowship.

But, politically, I am a libertarian and as such, I am in the firm belief that my religion, or ANY religion, should not be a part of any governmental body, as it would interfere with the society it governs. But let us clear a few things up, shall we?

"One nation, under God." That was first used by The Knights of Columbus, whom inserted it in when they recited the pledge. In case you may be wondering, The Knights Of Columbus are for the most part a Catholic organization.
The meaning of "one nation under God" means that no man, no nation, is more powerful than God himself. The KOC lobbied congress to insert this into the pledge, and in the 1950's it was done, for the most part to remind Americans that communist's were theoretically godless, the communist state being their religion. And so it stuck. Hmm, person in the OP vid probably didnt know that...making him *gasp* ignorant!

"In God We Trust." How that came about to be printed on US currency, I am not aware or know. But, I DO know what it means, and it is pretty simple: Again, it is a reminder to people that in only God you should trust, as money and government was invented by humans and as such, are corrupt and tainted.
It is kind of like the US government is telling its citizens that government is a pretty sleazy entity, and not to put your faith into it.

To be honest, the gentleman in that video came across to me as ignorant and bigoted. I guess it really depends on what side of the fence you are viewing from. And just plain nasty, too. Not all Christians are as he described, and I for one do not understand this deep hate from atheists, a bit from him, but especially on the internet. To the angry atheists: what has God and religion done to you to hold all this hate and frustration?

How I wish the ideals of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were still implemented today, the original writing of the United States Constitution. Today, we have essentially two political parties that for the most part are as different as comparing eggshell white and antique white paints.

I know there are others who feel the same way as me, but being as the internet is, a godless landscape, might be afraid to say so, because of the unneeded ridicule some people bring down on them.
As a matter of fact, I have received some pretty hateful words from atheists and the like over the years on the internet. And here I thought that they feel that it is religion that spreads hate all over the world....
Quote from jayhawk :Not all Christians are as he described, and I for one do not understand this deep hate from atheists, a bit from him, but especially on the internet. To the angry atheists: what has God and religion done to you to hold all this hate and frustration?

On my part, I wouldn't say it's hate, more of severe annoyance.

And it's more aimed at those theists who want all others to obey the same rules, customs and doctrines they do. Even by all means necessary.

On the otherhand those who practise religion in their own circles, I have no problem. But when I'm in the town and constantly endure unsolicited advertisements and approaches of this or that religion, again, I start to get annoyed.
#28 - JJ72
Quote from jayhawk :To the angry atheists: what has God and religion done to you to hold all this hate and frustration?

I guess it's rather FAKE god and FAKE religion that intimidates people. I am not saying your god is fake, I am just talking about the "GOD" whos identity and vision has been twisted to fulfill some mortals personal agenda as a political tool, while in the process defy what should be true about a religion. (which in the end must be something along a sense of kindness and union.)

I don't consider myself an atheists, but one thing that annoys me that most is how some minor group of the religious people defend their religion against facts, people who are supposed to be seeking the ultimate truth, choose to defend blindly against new findings that could change the "foundation" of which they so firmly believe in, in the process denying the possibility that our god given intelligence can be a good judge in what is true, if they just believe the bible then it is just the bible, nothing else stands. If that is the case then why were we given intelligence at the first place? To understand how sorry we are being a mortal and plea for help for the whole life? I don't believe a god would put its people in such a negative mindset,I believe it at least will have given us tools to achieve something good, something we naturally feel good about, like discovery and finding out how things works. If the notion of a religion is to suppress our development in intelligence, asking us to obey instead of rationalizing between what we know and what we not know, then i am not convinced.

I know this is the minority, but this minority is rather too large.
I agree in part with the original video, but I think the way he makes his points can probably alienate those he's attempting to speak to. However, when religion is involved I strongly doubt anything's going to change people's minds.

Quote from jayhawk :Again, it is a reminder to people that in only God you should trust, as money and government was invented by humans and as such, are corrupt and tainted.
It is kind of like the US government is telling its citizens that government is a pretty sleazy entity, and not to put your faith into it.

...and for those Americans who don't believe God exists (any God in any form). Why are they being told they should value God above all else? As I understand it America is supposed to be about freedom of expression, religion etc. If you're an atheist and you're being told by your constitution and your money that you should believe in something you don't currently believe in I think you might take that as being a slight on your freedom. Restricting teaching in public schools so that the theory of evolution can't be taught purely on religious grounds is also incredibly archaic in its nature. Why are people so afraid of knowledge? Anything that contradicts what they know to be true through their religious text MUST be false, so ineligible as teaching material?

I'm an atheist and there are only certain select groups of people I feel I can truly hate on principle. These do not include people who believe in something unless they choose to use these beliefs as the basis for attacking/killing other people who choose not to share those beliefs. I don't hate people just because they're Christians or Hindu etc. The very notion of that is, to me, ludicrous. I can't speak for other atheists but I honestly can't see any logical reason to hate someone just because they choose to believe in something you don't. There are, however, some people who have religious beliefs and do hate other people simply because of their interpretation of their beliefs.

Religion has been the cause of (or excuse for, depending on your point of view) countless wars and killings over the history of time. I don't know of any wars which have been fought by atheists on people with religious beliefs simply because the atheists hate them.
The biggest annoyance that I have to deal with religious people is the belief that they think that their way of thinking is the way "everybody thinks" and they take their thought as the only one. Anything other is different. I know few christian people, few are even my friends or have been and generally they are just like other people. So on personal level I have nothing against them. And I have no idea even iuf I should, not even in teh interwebz.

It is just all this abortion/holy this and that/man-before-woman/atheism/taught-to-believe-from-birth what makes me feel so negatively against any religion as such. The worst part of it is the way some things are deemed downright evil and wrong, even if those things are very private ones. How can your religion (not pointed at anyone) force any rules of life to any single human if the said human doesn't want to have any dealings with the said religion? How is that possible? Or why?
#31 - JJ72
Quote from Hyperactive :How can your religion (not pointed at anyone) force any rules of life to any single human if the said human doesn't want to have any dealings with the said religion? How is that possible? Or why?

Because it's part of their mission to "spread the news" about the "inevitable" that will happen once you die. So they are out to save our asses.
Quote from JJ72 : I don't believe a god would put its people in such a negative mindset,I believe it at least will have given us tools to achieve something good, something we naturally feel good about, like discovery and finding out how things works. If the notion of a religion is to suppress our development in intelligence, asking us to obey instead of rationalizing between what we know and what we not know, then i am not convinced.

I know this is the minority, but this minority is rather too large.

God has given us the tools to do good, it is your brain! if God wanted humans to pray more, we would have small brains and sturdy knees to kneel.
How you go through life is ultimately your decision, God has given humans free will in which to choose their own path, be it in the servitude of God or not. In the same vain, how you interpret your religion determines the person you are; you can take guidance from your religion, or you can interpret the teaching of your religion to jive with how you want them to be.
Sadly, that is what is plaguing the Muslim religion right now. I have read the Koran, and if Christians, Jew and Muslims really knew just how close each other religion is, alot of problems and tensions would cease.
#33 - th84
Quote from jayhawk :To the angry atheists: what has God and religion done to you to hold all this hate and frustration?

Being an atheist myself, I find myself asking the same sort of question to christian people on a regular basis.

"What have I done to be excluded from the same right's that christian Americans have based only on the fact that I dont believe the same way they do? Why do so many christians constantly try and convince me that their way of believing is the right way?"

I am not a angry atheist by any means, I truly believe that people have the right to believe (or not) in whatever/whoever they want..... I just wish more christian people felt the same way.



edit: my avatar has nothing to do with religious beliefs, I just found it googling and thought it fit well.
Quote from Hyperactive :How can your religion (not pointed at anyone) force any rules of life to any single human if the said human doesn't want to have any dealings with the said religion? How is that possible? Or why?

Well, in my beliefs, you can do what you want with your life, I could care less. You made your choice, you stand by it, good for you. As I mentioned earlier, having some people send me PM's with really nasty words about MY choices in life is...saddening. I would never do that to another, and that isnt because of my faith. That is just being a decent human.
The world is only 0.2% Jewish. You don't see us bitching about Jesus! I bet that guy on youtube is an anti-semite too. How about Islam? The amount of Muslims in the world is increasing, and eventually will near the amount of Christians in the world. I'm sorry, but I think more Muslim people do harm then Christians. Even though this guy is aloud to out front call Christians stupid, I will probally get a thread full of flamers for even mentioning Islam in my post.
#36 - th84
Quote from jayhawk :having some people send me PM's with really nasty words about MY choices in life is...saddening

I agree, that is sad, but I dont think that is anymore sad than some of the e-mails I get from christian co-worker's. Once they found out about my lack of religious belief, my inbox became flooded (and still does) with the typical "why god is real" emails. I find them more offensive and disrespectful than any sort of hate mail that I could get. My reply is always the same.... you have your beliefs and I have mine, why not leave me be? I dont send anyone any emails trying to convince anyone that god is not real, or my beliefs are the right ones for anyone else.
Quote from wheel4hummer :The world is only 0.2% Jewish. You don't see us bitching about Jesus! I bet that guy on youtube is an anti-semite too. How about Islam? The amount of Muslims in the world is increasing, and eventually will near the amount of Christians in the world. I'm sorry, but I think more Muslim people do harm then Christians. Even though this guy is aloud to out front call Christians stupid, I will probally get a thread full of flamers for even mentioning Islam in my post.

Oh my! The competition for the worst religion is indeed interesting but what you just said is plain bs. Really, it is. That guy in the youtube clips has nothing to do with ani-semitism . Everyone has the right to say something sucks, using any words his or hers imagination allows. To me your post looks more like hypocrite preaching instead of well thought opinion. You can do better.

Basically what Jayhawk just said:
Quote from jayhawk :God has given us the tools to do good, it is your brain! if God wanted humans to pray more, we would have small brains and sturdy knees to kneel.
How you go through life is ultimately your decision, God has given humans free will in which to choose their own path, be it in the servitude of God or not. In the same vain, how you interpret your religion determines the person you are; you can take guidance from your religion, or you can interpret the teaching of your religion to jive with how you want them to be.
Sadly, that is what is plaguing the Muslim religion right now.
<snip>

And it is just this. I really dislike the way you present your way of thinking as the truth when it should be presented as an opinion. I respect your view on this matter, of course, but won't accept it

Religion is and always have been used as a excuse for something. The real people are in most cases always friendly all around the world. What may be plaguing the muslim religion now has been plaguing every religion that has ever existed. As long as there is money, power or visibility involved you have the kind people inside the religion that are just after those 3 things.
Quote from Hyperactive :
Religion is and always have been used as a excuse for something.

The sad fact is that more wars have been fought because of religion than for any other cause.

I am sitting firmly on the fence in this debate, each to his own etc..

However, in the words of John Lennon...

Quote from John Lennon : Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

THAT is my philosophy!
Quote from Bladerunner :The sad fact is that more wars have been fought because of religion than for any other cause.

I am sitting firmly on the fence in this debate, each to his own etc..

However, in the words of John Lennon...



THAT is my philosophy!

Rip-off!

LINKy!
Quote from wheel4hummer :The world is only 0.2% Jewish. You don't see us bitching about Jesus! I bet that guy on youtube is an anti-semite too. How about Islam? The amount of Muslims in the world is increasing, and eventually will near the amount of Christians in the world. I'm sorry, but I think more Muslim people do harm then Christians. Even though this guy is aloud to out front call Christians stupid, I will probally get a thread full of flamers for even mentioning Islam in my post.

No, you usually get flamed for saying silly (and sometimes hideous) things and lowering the level of a debate.
Quote from wheel4hummer :I'm sorry, but I think more Muslim people do harm then Christians. Even though this guy is aloud to out front call Christians stupid, I will probally get a thread full of flamers for even mentioning Islam in my post.

wheel4hummer.... you don't look very far, before opening your mouth do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc
Any attempt to rationally discuss religion will descend into an argument since faith and reason are incompatible. Maybe some day in the future humans will grow up and stop needing a Santa Claus figure but I'm afraid it looks doubtful.
I have nothing against religion, but I do dislike people who use it as a way to achieve their own goals. Having power over the people, as a preacher or any other leader. Telling people to do something because you'll please God with it, just like some Islamic people do in Arabia. Misinterpreting the bible, koran or tora causes a lot of trouble, and a lot of people are stupid enough to believe them.
Quote from wheel4hummer :The world is only 0.2% Jewish. You don't see us bitching about Jesus! I bet that guy on youtube is an anti-semite too.

And, as everybody knows, irrationally hating Jews is worse than irrationally hating anyone else. Because Jews are special.
Quote from wheel4hummer :The world is only 0.2% Jewish. You don't see us bitching about Jesus!

Unfortunately Israel is a very good example of how Jews are as bad as evil Muslims who are as bad as Christians who are as bad as atheists :doh:

Group gets persecuted and given somewhere to live then it gets the full support of the worlds biggest superpower to fight against the horrible little Muslims. Unfortunately until politics and religion are separated pointless wars will continue, starting with the worlds biggest superpower would be a good place to start.
Quote from Hyperactive :Rip-off!

LINKy!

Didn't see that post cos it was in a different thread, but isn't it funny how his words are just as good for this debate as for the other debate?
Quote from thisnameistaken :And, as everybody knows, irrationally hating Jews is worse than irrationally hating anyone else. Because Jews are special.

Can you quote me saying that? Once again, a post made by me has been spun to push everyone's personal agendas.

Quote from Albieg :No, you usually get flamed for saying silly (and sometimes hideous) things and lowering the level of a debate.

So, just because you disagree with my post, it means that I 'lowered the level' of the debate? It's not a debate if everyone agrees! (Is it?)

Quote from ajp71 :Unfortunately until politics and religion are separated pointless wars will continue, starting with the worlds biggest superpower would be a good place to start.

Israel is a Jewish state. Politics in Israel IS religion. Maybe if the Arab's weren't blowing sh*t up in Israel, then there wouldn't be as many "Pointless wars" that you describe?

Quote from hrtburnout :Misinterpreting the bible, koran or torah causes a lot of trouble, and a lot of people are stupid enough to believe them.

There is no such thing as misinterpreting the Torah really. everyone can have their own personal interpretations of the Torah. No-one is right or wrong, but there are interpretations that are more mainstream. I just don't understand why we can't have our little Jewish state PEACEFULLY among the Arabs. The Arabs don't want Israel to exist at all! Look at all the Arab countries, they have so much land, why do they want Israel gone? Why do they blow themselves up killing innocent people? Or, are no Jews innocent? Are all jews guilty of some sort of crime?

Quote from nihil :wheel4hummer.... you don't look very far, before opening your mouth do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc

I'm not against Islam, I'm against terrorists!
Quote from wheel4hummer :And, as everybody knows, irrationally hating Jews is worse than irrationally hating anyone else.

Here you go.
Quote from MAGGOT :It must be an 'Outspoken British' thing. :P

The pauses are a way of letting the points sink in, but also keep Americans interested, because anything that goes on for more then 20 seconds without a pause they lose interest in (which is why American Football is so popular).
Quote from wheel4hummer :
So, just because you disagree with my post, it means that I 'lowered the level' of the debate? It's not a debate if everyone agrees! (Is it?)

You come here spitting hatred (as usual) and you talk about disagreement? Get real! Or better, start reading and thinking.

United States of Jesus.
(93 posts, started )
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