Quote from Glenn67 :

Our values must be quite different from where I sit they are not doing it because they are earning alot of money, they are doing it because they enjoy it. The best estimations I've seen for their income once expenses etc have been taken out and then devided by time spent on the project is not that great.

Enjoying your work is important.. when you sell something, it becomes more than just doing it for the love of doing it, there are obligations to meet.

I love my work, I don't earn a great deal.. sometimes not enough (if work isn't there, I don't get paid, simple as that).. I also took a big loss for 2 years while trying to build a business / reputation.. it's something you have to grin and bear when you start out on your own.. that doesn't give me an excuse / right to give a little here and little there to my customers, they expect 100% all of the time, which by my standards, is fair play.. afterall, they've paid for my 100% by being my customer.



Regards,

Ian

Well, I think it will actually be an odd thing to see a post that supports Ian, but I do. I support the mild fanboys too. I've been playing LFS since version 0.something of the demo version. I'm playing it less now than I used to, but I'm still playing it. I've posted a pretty high number of posts where I complain about the development of LFS, and I still think that it's flawed, but as today, I don't think I'll just stop playing.

I'm still playing other old games too. The kind of games that were once considered top notch and that are now... well just old games that you play once in a while because, after all, they're still good.

The problem is that I shouldn't really feel that way about LFS. I don't feel like there has been much change over the years. It's still the same thing. I'm enjoying it, yes, but I'm not enjoying it than I did, while I believe I should if there was constant new content.

About the graphic issue, I tend to agree with Tweak and Ian. I just can't conceive how you fanboys don't actually feel bad when you see that Erik didn't give us anything for a year now. While we've not paid for the final product, we've paid for the progress, and it would be nice to see something done about the graphics. I mean, the patch with the new astons and the BF1 was nice, it had numerous graphical upgrades. What would be good is to have those kind of upgrades in every patch. I'm not asking for a whole new graphical engine, just upgrades in every patch. I'll be greatly dissapointed if patch Y doesn't bring more than new interiors and a new south city. These are obviously needed, but do we have to believe that Erik did nothing else in a year?

I know! My post is useless. The devs are untouchable, and with their army of fanboys, there's just no way we come to the agreement that Erik is a schlow poke. Face the thruth, come on. Another thing: people saying that the graphics are fine as is. Same thing applies to the people who say that physics » graphics. When you're driving a car, you don't only feel the road. You see it, graphics and physics are one, they're the impression of reality. You could give near-reality physics to a game like NFS 2 and you'd have the same problem that LFS has, it would just be extreme. The current LFS graphics are crap. The current LFS physics, even if they're the best currently available on the market, are FAR from something close to perfection. It doesn't mean that it's not fun, tho.

IMO sound is one of the most important things in lfs. Try to race a 3 lap race with any car, on any track with no sound. You feel no immersion into the game, its extremely hard. I cant do it.

Quote from stevewhite :

IMO sound is one of the most important things in lfs. Try to race a 3 lap race with any car, on any track with no sound. You feel no immersion into the game, its extremely hard. I cant do it.

Try the same thing with no image?

Quote from boosterfire :

I just can't conceive how you fanboys don't actually feel bad when you see that Erik didn't give us anything for a year now.

I wanted to know the answer to this too, and I'm (very reliably) informed by another programmer and game developer friend of mine, that the work Eric has been doing HAS to wait until Scawen (the core of the product, as the programmer) is ready for it. It's as simple as that.. and absolutely nothing to do with ANY lack of effort on Eric's part.

Quote from SamH :

I wanted to know the answer to this too, and I'm (very reliably) informed by another programmer and game developer friend of mine, that the work Eric has been doing HAS to wait until Scawen (the core of the product, as the programmer) is ready for it. It's as simple as that.. and absolutely nothing to do with ANY lack of effort on Eric's part.

If you can confirm it, and especially if patch Y can confirm this, I'll be the first to go out there and enjoy that new content. I understand that Erik has to wait for an incompatible patch. I hope, and somehow believe that he did work, but you have to admit that leaving us clueless isn't actually the best thing to do.

Again, I might seem to contradict myself, but I believe that he's been working. There's just a part of me that tends to believe only what I see, and this part is telling me that I've seen nothing for a year.

Quote from boosterfire :

Try the same thing with no image?

The people who play lfs always bash the sounds, but i think they are great. The sounds are so responsive, they let you know every little thing you car is doing. Sound is just as important to this game as the graphics or physics. And we have seen MAJOR updates to the sounds in lfs. Be thankful! If the devs stopped development right now, the game would be worth the money you pay for it. Know of any onther games (not just racing) with a community like lfs? The devs are so close with the players, we actully get what we want in the games.

Quote from boosterfire :

If you can confirm it, and especially if patch Y can confirm this, I'll be the first to go out there and enjoy that new content. I understand that Erik has to wait for an incompatible patch. I hope, and somehow believe that he did work, but you have to admit that leaving us clueless isn't actually the best thing to do.

I can't confirm a thing. I know that some people (probably not many, but some) think that moderators have an inside track. We don't, and know no more than anyone else on the forum. Perhaps a little more, in that we're moderators because we're here on the forum a lot, hanging out in threads we're not necessarily *specifically* carrying an interest in (nature of the job) and therefore probably pick up more of an overall feel.. but I can confirm that I know exactly diddly that Scawen hasn't posted himself, here on the forum.

However, I can confirm that the nature of game development DOES mean that content is introduced according to the timeframe that is led by the programmer, not the content developer. This could be verified by anyone else who also knows a game developer, elsewhere in the world.

Erik does have to wait for an incompatible patch to release anything. And if he did release anything every 3 months or so, the whole community would be pissed! All the hotlaps and everything getting erased EVERYTIME he released something? Once a year is fine, Thanks.

tweak heres the thing i dont get
you more than anyone else here have the ability to adress the devs personally and have some levaerage in the development process yet you choose to ramble about these things in public
when kid and vykos (which from my understanding in turn have more leverage than you) did the same thing last year scawen seemed to have been hit on a personal level

Quote from Ian.H :

I'm well aware LFS itself is a continual WIP, however, I paid for a final version of _S2_, nowhere have I said a final version of LFS, which would S3 final. Stop trynig to put words into my mouth to cover your ignorance.

you've pre-ordered S2 Final, and the devs are letting you try S2 Alpha IF YOU WANT (!!!!!!!!)

Most games like GTR2 etc don't take as long (because face it, their not making there own engine), and as such people still pre-order them a few months early - S2 is made by 3 guys with no day jobs, they need a little amount of money to keep them going until S2 is out (properly), and people like me are more than happy to pay - ive had more enjoyment out of LFS than every other driving game i've played combined, and i consider it well worth the £24 it costs, and more than the £48 i've paid so far

Quote from Ian.H :

I shouldn't have to rely on a 3rd party addon to make the original game content reasonable.. that's what I (and many others) paid Scawen to do.

and yet you'll quite happily buy rFactor with very little content...?

IMO Eric should get in contact with Elektric Kar and get his textures (or at least some of them) for a "official hi-res pack" - i understand that chucking coders at Scawen doesn't get us the S3 we want ant faster, but its less work for Erik to do.

Quote from Ian.H :

We're not shareholders etc, true.. but they happily took our money and are now sitting on it doing practically nothing as far as progress goes.

That in my opinion can only be a subject feeling cos there's no comparison...I certainly wouldn't say it's fast, but I also don't feel that much time has passed since patch U.

(maybe that's because I got my flight simulator)

Quote from Ian.H :

Enjoying your work is important.. when you sell something, it becomes more than just doing it for the love of doing it, there are obligations to meet.

I can honestly say that I believe that Scawen does listen to his customers and does give 100% to the project.

But if he does or doesn't, really isn't a concern for us It's his concern only and depends on how he wants to balance family life with future aspiriations of income/opportunities etc.

You in your business also are the soul determinator of how sucsessful you will be based on how you choose to progress your business. And how you balance family life over business can have long term impacts on what you feel sucess really is, which incidently can change dramatically over a lifetime. Your customers pay for the product you have now not the potential future products you may develop. And although you might have customers that would like to see you achieve better standards or a more diverse product range etc. it is really not something for them to determine for you.

The same is true for LFS it's a product that I have choosen to pay for on the basis of what it is now. If in the future it develops two fold, one hundred fold or not at all, that is not for me to decided. I've already got value for money. If you think you haven't got value for money then put it aside with the knowledge that you may still get value for your money at some later stage. It doesn't matter what the product is, it want make everyone happy, thats life.

Quote from stevewhite :

Erik does have to wait for an incompatible patch to release anything. And if he did release anything every 3 months or so, the whole community would be pissed!

I seriously doubt that.

Quote :

All the hotlaps and everything getting erased EVERYTIME he released something? Once a year is fine, Thanks.

Big deal about the hotlaps. The last thing that should slow down LFS development are hotlaps. LFS is not finished, so hotlaps will be reset plenty of times to come. That's something people have to deal with when playing a game in development. It certainly shouldn't slow down development or release frequency.

Quote from Jakg :

you've pre-ordered S2 Final, and the devs are letting you try S2 Alpha IF YOU WANT (!!!!!!!!)

Granted.. how damn long to I have to wait until I'm no longer a paying beta tester with no beta testing privs? 2 years is _more_ than enough, thank you very much.

Quote :

Most games like GTR2 etc don't take as long (because face it, their not making there own engine), and as such people still pre-order them a few months early - S2 is made by 3 guys with no day jobs, they need a little amount of money to keep them going until S2 is out (properly), and people like me are more than happy to pay - ive had more enjoyment out of LFS than every other driving game i've played combined, and i consider it well worth the £24 it costs, and more than the £48 i've paid so farand yet you'll quite happily buy rFactor with very little content...?

I bought rfactor as an "SDK" of sorts. I knew what content it it came with and what it didn't.. I wasn't interested in it for what it shipped with, I was interested it in as the whole theory of modding sparked an interest when I started playing F1C after getting bored of LFS.

If LFS opened its doors the same, you wouldn't hear a peep from me unless there was something that was out of my hands (using rF as a comparison, the AI.. I spent way too many hours working on things for that, but ultimately the flaws lie with ISI's AI logic, no tweaking files will fix it) as I could then create my own tracks, map them properly, use high-res textures, etc etc.. LFS is closed source, there's sweet FA I can do to enhance the game separate to the devs so the only avenue is to comment. I'd far far sooner be fixing this stuff I'm complaining about myself rather than have to criticise the slow development here. Contrary to what some people may think, I'm not just trying to create a storm here, if I was, I wouldn't have continually replied and would have worded my first posts very differently. I'm _hoping_ the devs may see some posts here (not just mine, even ignoring mine completely) and step back and take a look at themselves and LFS... would they really be happy if they were in the same shoes?

The only people here defending the slow progress are fanbois / LFS fanatics.. anyone with a passing interest or who just thinks that currently LFS has one of the best feelings in regards to car handling can see the flaws... bugs / temporary solutions that have been in for way too long.. but hey, as I said, we can now write stupid lil scripts rather than click the buttons manually in the interface... LFS must now be complete! YAY :rolleyes:

Quote :

IMO Eric should get in contact with Elektric Kar and get his textures (or at least some of them) for a "official hi-res pack" - i understand that chucking coders at Scawen doesn't get us the S3 we want ant faster, but its less work for Erik to do.

IMO, Eric needs to scrap the tracks and start again and map them properly and fix those broken vertices causing those pathetic random shadows. Elektric Kar has done a great job with his texture updates, I have them all installed here.. but some are seriously limited.. not by his lack of skill / effort, but due to the way Eric's managed to screw up the mapping on the tracks so royally.. and I know this is screwed as I've tried updating the textures myself and gave up as it just creates an abortion when you try and use textures that have some realistic detail to them unless it's the likes plain tarmac.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Glenn67 :

I can honestly say that I believe that Scawen does listen to his customers and does give 100% to the project.

But if he does or doesn't, really isn't a concern for us It's his concern only and depends on how he wants to balance family life with future aspiriations of income/opportunities etc.

So now's the time to consider adding people to the army. If Scawen can no longer perform to a full potential due to other commitments, then someone else needs to bridge the void and "allow" him that freedom.. you can't just down tools because you feel like it when you're a commercial business.

Quote :

You in your business also are the soul determinator of how sucsessful you will be based on how you choose to progress your business. And how you balance family life over business can have long term impacts on what you feel sucess really is, which incidently can change dramatically over a lifetime. Your customers pay for the product you have now not the potential future products you may develop. And although you might have customers that would like to see you achieve better standards or a more diverse product range etc. it is really not something for them to determine for you.

I agree.. I'm not saying how LFS in general should be (thinking LFS == S3 too).. just that I expect, as a paying customer (damn I hate using that phrase) that some progress be made to the product I paid for.. not to expoect to be having to wait years on end for minimal progress. LFS is a game, not an investment.

Quote :

The same is true for LFS it's a product that I have choosen to pay for on the basis of what it is now. If in the future it develops two fold, one hundred fold or not at all, that is not for me to decided. I've already got value for money. If you think you haven't got value for money then put it aside with the knowledge that you may still get value for your money at some later stage. It doesn't matter what the product is, it want make everyone happy, thats life.

I bought it with visions of having a final product. At the time I paid, there was no version of S2 available.. I pre-ordered as I had enjoyed S1 a great deal.. I didn't pay for it to remain in alpha state for 2+ years.

I have put it aside, I put it aside for 2 years, nothing changed.. how much longer do you think I should keep putting it aside for? 2? 5? 10? 20 years?



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Ian.H :

I'm _hoping_ the devs may see some posts here (not just mine, even ignoring mine completely) and step back and take a look at themselves and LFS... would they really be happy if they were in the same shoes?

Ah-ha, in the midst of the muck, there is a purpose.

Ian, your arguments get weaker as your post length/count grows. If you really want to make a point (not just a temporary stir) then just state it concisely.

Quote from Ian.H :

The only people here defending the slow progress are fanbois / LFS fanatics.

Quote from Ian.H :

IMO, Eric needs to scrap the tracks and start again and map them properly. Elektric Kar has done a great job with his texture updates, I have them all installed here.. but some are seriously limited.. not by his lack of skill / effort, but due to the way Eric's managed to screw up the mapping on the tracks so royally

See, Ian, this is the kind of posting that gets you called a troll. I know you know this, and I know all of your pre-scripted defenses for it:

-You call it like you see it, with brutal honesty.
-You're not afraid to hurt some feelings to get your point across.
-Anyone who calls you a troll just doesn't know you, maaaan.

But seriously... there's respectfully calling it as you see it, and then there's posting without regard for the feelings and viewpoints of your peers. You fall back on the abovelisted replies too often for them to be anything other than stock talking points, a cover for what you know to be the truth. i.e., that you know exactly what you're doing--stirring the pot, so to speak. I don't mean to say that this is your main goal in posting--I certainly agree with many of your criticisms--but I think it's possible to separate the content of your posts from the style in which you make them. The former is acceptable and the latter is bordering on unacceptable.

Additionally, given the number of times you reference yourself and your personal business in your posts, and given the complete disrespect you seem to have for those with viewpoints differing from your own, I feel like we're probably dealing with a case of severe egomania here.

I hate to further contribute to the downward slide of this thread, but I feel like you need to be respectfully and thoughtfully called out on some of these things.

Quote from Ian.H :

Granted.. how damn long to I have to wait until I'm no longer a paying beta tester with no beta testing privs? 2 years is _more_ than enough, thank you very much.

like i said, you could of bought it when it went final, but you bought it now, knowing it was wip

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

See, Ian, this is the kind of posting that gets you called a troll. I know you know this, and I know all of your pre-scripted defenses for it:

-You call it like you see it, with brutal honesty.
-You're not afraid to hurt some feelings to get your point across.
-Anyone who calls you a troll just doesn't know you, maaaan.

But seriously... there's respectfully calling it as you see it, and then there's posting without regard for the feelings and viewpoints of your peers. You fall back on the abovelisted replies too often for them to be anything other than stock talking points, a cover for what you know to be the truth. i.e., that you know exactly what you're doing--stirring the pot, so to speak. I don't mean to say that this is your main goal in posting--I certainly agree with many of your criticisms--but I think it's possible to separate the content of your posts from the style in which you make them. The former is acceptable and the latter is bordering on unacceptable.

Additionally, given the number of times you reference yourself and your personal business in your posts, and given the complete disrespect you seem to have for those with viewpoints differing from your own, I feel like we're probably dealing with a case of severe egomania here.

I hate to further contribute to the downward slide of this thread, but I feel like you need to be respectfully and thoughtfully called out on some of these things.

Have you seriously looked at the texture mapping of the LFS tracks? Try it.. create some textures (don't even have to be real, just add something that would resemble some tarmac).. add it to Blackwood (one of LFS' newest tracks since the revamp).. now tell me the corners of the shicane look good, the exit of the rally-x track.. everything is all over the place... why? because Eric mapped them badly.

How do you want me to word it? I called a spade a spade, so be it.

There's no ego.. just that I know what it's like being the small guy.. a response to when people try and excuse things with "but there's only 3 of them".. sure there is, things can still get done.

This'll please you.. I had to close half my business down earlier in the year due to lack of business available.. hosting is no longer profitable as an individual. To me, that's failure.. I failed. It worked for 4 years, but that's not good enough.. so there you go, no ego, I tried and I failed and not ashamed to admit it. Now I stick with the coding side of things.

If you think my responses are scripted, fine.. I'm not here to convince you otherwise.. it's just how I am.. you'd get exactly the same response sitting across from me at a bar... take it or leave it.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Jakg :

like i said, you could of bought it when it went final, but you bought it now, knowing it was wip

Had I expected a lifetime for the development cycle, I wouldn't have... but you keep living in your little LFS bubble



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Jakg :

you've pre-ordered S2 Final, and the devs are letting you try S2 Alpha IF YOU WANT (!!!!!!!!)

"O rly?"

*Let's take a look at what I would be required to read if I were about to buy a license for the first time:
http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=shopinfo
No mention of "Alpha" or "unfinished" there.

http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=contents
Again, no mention there.

http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=agreement
S2 is not referred to as S2 "Alpha". No mention of "Alpha" or "Unfinished".

https://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=shop
"LFS S2 Full" (Menu attached in pic)

From there I'm a couple of clicks are several credit card digits away from buying my "LFS S2 Full" license.



*Playing Devil's advocate perhaps, but if I'd done all that above, I would be buying and expecting to receive a "finished" product. We can argue all day about what can be considered "finished", how it's better than most "full" products, how "Alpha" is just a label that could be replaced any moment by "Final" since we have received all the content that S2 promised already etc etc. It's a silly argument, but I think I (as a newbie, just bought my "Full" S2 license, not even downloaded LFS yet) could be entitled to complain, because I've bought something and only found out that it is a WIP afterwards.

Edit, before anyone mentions it. Yes, it says Alpha in the news part of the main page, but I'm talking about the things I would be required or obliged to read on my way to buying it.

But there is no mention what kind of features should be in S2. Therefore you can't demand anything more than "an online racing simulation".

Quote from Ian.H :

Have you seriously looked at the texture mapping of the LFS tracks? Try it.. create some textures (don't even have to be real, just add something that would resemble some tarmac).. add it to Blackwood (one of LFS' newest tracks since the revamp).. now tell me the corners of the shicane look good, the exit of the rally-x track.. everything is all over the place... why? because Eric mapped them badly.

How do you want me to word it? I called a spade a spade, so be it.

I haven't, no, as I'm not that technically inclined. However, instead of phrasing it as "Eric's managed to screw up the mapping on the tracks so royally," you could simply say "the mapping of the tracks is badly designed." It's a simple change but it greatly reduces the personal attack element of the comment while at the same time preserving the meaning. Everyone knows who does the mapping, so if you're going to say it's crap there's no need to excessively drag Eric's name through the mud while you're at it.

Quote :

There's no ego.. just that I know what it's like being the small guy.. a response to when people try and excuse things with "but there's only 3 of them".. sure there is, things can still get done.

This'll please you.. I had to close half my business down earlier in the year due to lack of business available.. hosting is no longer profitable as an individual. To me, that's failure.. I failed. It worked for 4 years, but that's not good enough.. so there you go, no ego, I tried and I failed and not ashamed to admit it. Now I stick with the coding side of things.

I can assure you that it gives me no pleasure that your business failed. I know how hard it is for small business owners--my father has been one for all his life--and I'm sorry that it happened to you. I appreciate that you have a similar perspective to the devs when it comes to running a business. I just feel that repeatedly referencing it isn't really necessary, and only serves to perpetuate an image of you as a self-important gasbag.

Thanks for not flipping out on me for my post. Like I said, I think you've made a lot of constructive criticisms in this thread, and I hope some good comes of them. I just wish you'd express yourself a little differently sometimes.

Quote from Blackout :

But there is no mention what kind of features should be in S2. Therefore you can't demand anything more than "an online racing simulation".

OK, that's fine. I'll go with current content, but I want all the bugs ironed out.. no more temporary damage modelling, no more temporary moon launching collision detection, turbo boost modelled correctly, diffs that act like diffs, aero modelled correctly etc etc. These are what make a sim, right? but also things sadly lacking for years in LFS.

Do we have this? no.. it's not all just about additional content.. the above are flaws / bugs. These aren't optional (or shouldn't be ).



Regards,

Ian