Hello all,

Firstly, thank you for the 30 people who have submitted hotlaps to show your interest/intention to race in this series.

We are however left with a difficult situation...

30 people are not enough to be spread over 2 servers (also if you look at the times) the people from 8th to 8th were covered by less than a second on a 2 minute lap, therefore if we split this up we would be losing potentially a lot of close racing, which is the main and primary function of this league.


So, the question is do we persue a 1 division championship to guarantee full grid?

Well the answer WOULD be no if we used the existing W version of LFS, however if we moved to agreeing and using patch W10 for the entire championship then we can do the following...

Make one league of 28 people, with 2 drivers placed on the reserve list.
These reserve list drivers can turn up and spectate if they wish and if there is any spaces from non-attendance they can join for that race.

The 28 people will also include 10 teams of 2 drivers, therefore this will keep interest in the league from both a Drivers and a Team championship.

A post will be made seperately with the confirmed entry list.

With 28 people being in one list we have to confirm that these entries are happy to make a seperate install on their computer of LFS W10 (just copy your existing LFS directory) then run it from here.

Also the test on Thursday night will be a run through to make sure a server can run 28 people ok and that we jhave no 'lag issues'

With the new patch we will also have to review some rules (ie no resets) if you break your car and can;t get to the pits thats your bad, and also false started etc, also we will have to tweak the points system, as 28 people not 20, also rewarding the second race where perhaps the leaders have to fight their way up 28 places

Anyhow comments welcome please.

Regards,

Dru.

Well, running W10 for the whole season is not a good idea. Patch X will probably be released 1 day after round 1, so why don't we run w10 in round 1, and patch X in the following rounds.

well I know for a fact already that some people won't want to use W10, for the main reason that it is a test patch. It will have bugs, potentially bugs that could ruin league racing (false starts for example are sometimes wrong).

I'm all for running with W10, but it does sit at the back of my mind that it is a test patch, and it will have bugs.

However when patch X is released everyone will move on to move that, meaning that this league will be forced to change for the new patch anyway.

Either way it's one of 2 choices for everyone:
1. use patch W, and have to use 2 installs of LFS after patch X is released
2. use patch W10/X and have 2 installs of LFS now (for W and W10).

Quote from mr_x :

well I know for a fact already that some people won't want to use W10, for the main reason that it is a test patch. It will have bugs, potentially bugs that could ruin league racing (false starts for example are sometimes wrong).

I'm all for running with W10, but it does sit at the back of my mind that it is a test patch, and it will have bugs.

However when patch X is released everyone will move on to move that, meaning that this league will be forced to change for the new patch anyway.

Either way it's one of 2 choices for everyone:
1. use patch W, and have to use 2 installs of LFS after patch X is released
2. use patch W10/X and have 2 installs of LFS now (for W and W10).

a third option if X is literally just around the corner is to put the league back a week or two?? to wait for it to become official? we could say change round 1 to be another non-championship round to delay the start by a week?

Comments?

Quote from Dru :

a third option if X is literally just around the corner is to put the league back a week or two?? to wait for it to become official? we could say change round 1 to be another non-championship round to delay the start by a week?

Comments?

that's the best idea I've seen so far!

Maybe use the first race as a non-champ round as you say, but use it with W10 so we can see if the proposed weights will work. It will also allow practice for starting in a big field of cars. Then start from AS Cadet the following week (if X is out)

I personally don't mind running a test patch, but it would definitely suck if a bug occurs in a league race.
Things we can do is delaying the league by 1 week, or removing 1 round (I'm thinking of SO sprint 1 & 2, seeing as they're bugged anyway (max 16 players)).

Quote from mikey_G :

I personally don't mind running a test patch, but it would definitely suck if a bug occurs in a league race.
Things we can do is delaying the league by 1 week, or removing 1 round (I'm thinking of SO sprint 1 & 2, seeing as they're bugged anyway (max 16 players)).

I think too, that we could leave SO sprint 1 & 2 because of this 16 players limit, but I wouldn't mind running the test patch too, because only if we wait week, it would not mean, that it will be released until our first round!

Having run some leagues myself in the past, I feel you should know that in amatuer leagues (no prize money), everyone who has signed-up for the league won't keep turning up until the end of the season. In the last season I ran, there was almost a 50% difference between the most drivers who took part in any round and the least.

I think given the number of sign-ups, you should certainly stick with 1 division. Maybe 1 day or so before each race you should say that any places which haven't been taken by those who have submitted hotlaps, are open to anyone, this would help ensure that the grid is as full as possible.

This will be an exciting league without a doubt and knowing that the top 8 times were under a second difference is amazing.

Using the test patch would prove a problem for me. Example, final turn on final lap and in 1st a 'BUG' causes you goto spectate !!!!!

I dont know about anyone else but that would seriously PEE ME OFF

This will be a discusion that could go on till patch X is released

Do we know the exact date for patch X??? Or at least the week it will be released???

Although I've had no problems with the latest test patch so far, I personally would be uncomfortable with running league races with it. The potential for a bug to ruin someone's race is too high imho.

Quote from Dr Dink :

This will be an exciting league without a doubt and knowing that the top 8 times were under a second difference is amazing.

Using the test patch would prove a problem for me. Example, final turn on final lap and in 1st a 'BUG' causes you goto spectate !!!!!

I dont know about anyone else but that would seriously PEE ME OFF

This will be a discusion that could go on till patch X is released

Do we know the exact date for patch X??? Or at least the week it will be released???

There is whispers that it's next Friday (which means the next day after the first round) but thats only hearsay, but then we could make the first round a non-championship round running the test patch, just so people are aware of false starts how that effects things trying the reverse grid with 28 drivers - tweaking the points etc etc . . . .

Whadda you all say?


also the top 8 were covered by a second.

The top 20 were covered by less than 2 seconds

As it's only a five round championship as it is, i would prefer to see all rounds as point scorers.

We should just run a few test races you suggested in the other thread with W10 and test false starts/server stability etc and if all goes well then run the first round proper with W10...
Thereby contradicting my last post completely


All IMHO of course

EDIT..i really want to see that qualification list!

Quote from The Moose :

As it's only a five round championship as it is, i would prefer to see all rounds as point scorers.

We should just run a few test races you suggested in the other thread with W10 and test false starts/server stability etc and if all goes well then run the first round proper with W10...
Thereby contradicting my last post completely


All IMHO of course

EDIT..i really want to see that qualification list!

Hey Moose,

The data protection Act prevents me from publically showing this information..

However, the championship will still contain 5 championship rounds, we'll just push everything back a week so we have a non-championship round first followed by 4 scoring events then the end of season enduro round

just kidding about the data thing...

rc10racer 1:48:33mikey_G 1:48:43rooble 1:48:58hotmail 1:48:70qstomeq 1:48:78PaulC2K 1:48:85Kaw 1:49:28mcinterej 1:49:39Dru 1:49:42mr_x 1:49:43DrDink 1:49:51S14Drift 1:49:60TheMoose 1:49:67Leifde 1:49:76*dynofriend 1:50:04Thunderhead 1:50:13totx 1:50:15FOGlegsy 1:51:17der butz 1:50:20tongey 1:50:24Michael Leisterer1:50:65DrFred 1:51:13TFalke55 1:51:17m@ster@dis@ster 1:51:19Mr.Sing 1:51:62santaclaws 1:54:89JamieB 1:59:77

Quote from Dru :

Hey Moose,The data protection Act prevents me from publically showing this information..

LOL..i very nearly hit reply without reading the rest of the post...Just about to rant about "our right to see the information"

Anyhow..nice to hear everything will just get pushed back a week...sounds good to me.

I just want to get racing now, though having seen some of those times, a while longer to work on setups and do some proper practice wouldn't be a bad thing

Quote from The Moose :

LOL..i very nearly hit reply without reading the rest of the post...Just about to rant about "our right to see the information"

Anyhow..nice to hear everything will just get pushed back a week...sounds good to me.

I just want to get racing now, though having seen some of those times, a while longer to work on setups and do some proper practice wouldn't be a bad thing

don't spend so much of your time on the silver and gold STCC TBO servers then and join us tearing around in the UF1's on the Bronze...

Although hopefully from later today we will have a dedicated server for the length of the championship running the latest patch from a generous benefactor..

details will be posted later on to confirm server name etc etc.

Quote from Dru :

don't spend so much of your time on the silver and gold STCC TBO servers then and join us tearing around in the UF1's on the Bronze...

must..get..points... and having just got into the XRT and realising i love it i've got even more addicted

I did join a bronze server the other night actually, but i felt i had been transported into a school playground...with loads of those 'young people' who were talking in a language i didn't understand. And none of them would let me have a setup either, miserable little shits. so i left.
Guess it was just the wrong time of day.

Great news about the server though I'll be there for practice races for sure. (and I'll be on the scrounge for setups, i hope your feeling generous guys)

i would like to see it ran with W10 or whatever it will be called once its released,
if only for the reason that my team mate will make it into the race

I didnt really practice too much for the hotlap, i just figured that id make it into Div two if i was a bit too slow,

As for a practice server, Great idea! i have been frequenting in the STCC 1st tier server recently getting some UF practice in,

why chasing every (incompatible/compatible) patch? that'd give problems with install issues, incompatible issues, bug issues (maybe someone can't run (or with certain problem), someone can).

i would appoint two things. patch V/ even W was and is good enough for running this league first time... we may not want to have problems during updating, downgrading, 20/28 racers, bugs and so on... let them do their work on test patches, let us do our "serious" racing on stable servers/clients so noone should have a bunch of problems.

second thing... i think the times are quite close if you let the 54-59 out. 3 seconds for - what did you say? 28 ppl? - is not that bad, since it is hotlapping and can change, i didn't have the 5 days time nor hardware! to seriously do a hotlap, but that's discussed in another thread i could get 1 sec. better i think. so others can do (as i browsed some PBs, they are also experienced drivers, and maybe did their first laps on UF1000 even since this cup?)

furthermore why do we discuss 1 week before race start some of the principals? they were statuated in the announcement of the UF1000 mayhem cup, and should not have been changed so much, that it won't be the same as initial mentioned. some finetuning here and there is ok. but i signed up at the facts of sign up form and the rules from 04.04.07 and not with changes in qualifying, patches, now doing hotlaps, shifting all 1 or 2 weeks and so on... please hold on the initial concept (as it's good) too much discussion there wouldn't make it better. i think you now have all good ideas to finally stamp it to the ground and release an official procedure BEFORE the first race starts. and then we'll maybe have some ppl who don't want to enter as their ideas didn't come to touch
that's my thought of the whole thing of organising this.
as written in another thread: if there's a second season, there we can take all the benefits of our first expierence AND a final patch.

regards and keep it up but realistic... and as we say in germany -too many cooks spoil the broth- or smthng. like this

I didn't realise that you actually had to put a hot lap in to confirm you wanted to race. I was quite a bit off the times of others, and was happy to go in div 2, and presumed i would automatically be put there with all the other people that did slow, or no, hot laps. Oh well, never mind.

Quote from DrFred :

why chasing every (incompatible/compatible) patch? that'd give problems with install issues, incompatible issues, bug issues (maybe someone can't run (or with certain problem), someone can).

i would appoint two things. patch V/ even W was and is good enough for running this league first time... we may not want to have problems during updating, downgrading, 20/28 racers, bugs and so on... let them do their work on test patches, let us do our "serious" racing on stable servers/clients so noone should have a bunch of problems.

second thing... i think the times are quite close if you let the 54-59 out. 3 seconds for - what did you say? 28 ppl? - is not that bad, since it is hotlapping and can change, i didn't have the 5 days time nor hardware! to seriously do a hotlap, but that's discussed in another thread i could get 1 sec. better i think. so others can do (as i browsed some PBs, they are also experienced drivers, and maybe did their first laps on UF1000 even since this cup?)

furthermore why do we discuss 1 week before race start some of the principals? they were statuated in the announcement of the UF1000 mayhem cup, and should not have been changed so much, that it won't be the same as initial mentioned. some finetuning here and there is ok. but i signed up at the facts of sign up form and the rules from 04.04.07 and not with changes in qualifying, patches, now doing hotlaps, shifting all 1 or 2 weeks and so on... please hold on the initial concept (as it's good) too much discussion there wouldn't make it better. i think you now have all good ideas to finally stamp it to the ground and release an official procedure BEFORE the first race starts. and then we'll maybe have some ppl who don't want to enter as their ideas didn't come to touch
that's my thought of the whole thing of organising this.
as written in another thread: if there's a second season, there we can take all the benefits of our first expierence AND a final patch.

regards and keep it up but realistic... and as we say in germany -too many cooks spoil the broth- or smthng. like this

whilst we have the understanding of your points -there is a very REAL chance that the new patch WILL be official by then, also as we only had 30 people submit laps 28 +2 reserves if we tagged it ot 2 divisions, 15 per race is not ideally waht we had in mind, i'd hate to say sorry well in this case we will run just one division for the top 20 as that is also unfair

the reason we are discussing things is that we want to try and get everyone happy in the best possible way.

Agree with the Doc, rule changes sometimes are called for, whether its a 1 month before, 1 week before or a week into the series, but the last few discussions havent been about fine tuning, clarifying rules or coming up with solutions for certain problems, they've been about modifying the setup of the series and i think these sort of things need to be rubber stamped early into a series and then only modified if need be.

If just days before the series started you wanted everyone's opinion on whether we should use Patch W or X for the series due to its significant changes then that i can understand, but asking about Ballast a week beforehand, the possibility of using a test patch for a series and going from 2 divisions of 20 to 1 division of 28....

All of this is brought on by the test patch, if it didnt exist then these suggestions wouldnt have come about and we'd have a pretty concrete idea of how things were being done. While i certainly dont think its a bad thing to ask the competitors for their opinions on the organisation of the series I have to say that the current possible concept looks to be changing quite a bit from the original one.


If it was concrete that Patch X would be released on May 1st then lets push things back a week and take full advantage of it, but with no certainty of this and only test patches capable of offering those advantages i think we need to set a deadline and say if it isnt available by say the 28th then we should stick to patch W, if its out by then things go as planned with patch X. Patch W10 can allow people some practice with the new features and asside from its bugs it'll hopefully be no different when released, so lack of practice shouldnt be used as an excuse.
Otherwise we wait until patch X is released, whether thats May 1st or Sept 1st.


Original start date with the original concept or delay the series until the new patch is out and take advantage of what it offers.
Its a brand new series spanning just 28 days, lets get it underway and discuss future options when they're viable options rather than possibilities.
We may find that we dont need to handicap people with ballast, we may find we have 30+ people wanting to take part and 1 server just isnt enough. Lets leave the discussion of options to when they're available without risk.

@Dru

canceling ppl is always bad, but you're some kind of a leader of this league and have to say what's the matter and what not. if you only want to run one/no divisions then there's a simple way. to be short: open 2 servers for qualifying, the best 20 times are in the race. hotlapping? -> the fixed times for qualifying would cause a similar "chaos" like the hotlap submission for qualifying for the league

Quote from PaulC2K :

Agree with the Doc, rule changes sometimes are called for, whether its a 1 month before, 1 week before or a week into the series, but the last few discussions havent been about fine tuning, clarifying rules or coming up with solutions for certain problems, they've been about modifying the setup of the series and i think these sort of things need to be rubber stamped early into a series and then only modified if need be.

If just days before the series started you wanted everyone's opinion on whether we should use Patch W or X for the series due to its significant changes then that i can understand, but asking about Ballast a week beforehand, the possibility of using a test patch for a series and going from 2 divisions of 20 to 1 division of 28....

All of this is brought on by the test patch, if it didnt exist then these suggestions wouldnt have come about and we'd have a pretty concrete idea of how things were being done. While i certainly dont think its a bad thing to ask the competitors for their opinions on the organisation of the series I have to say that the current possible concept looks to be changing quite a bit from the original one.


If it was concrete that Patch X would be released on May 1st then lets push things back a week and take full advantage of it, but with no certainty of this and only test patches capable of offering those advantages i think we need to set a deadline and say if it isnt available by say the 28th then we should stick to patch W, if its out by then things go as planned with patch X. Patch W10 can allow people some practice with the new features and asside from its bugs it'll hopefully be no different when released, so lack of practice shouldnt be used as an excuse.
Otherwise we wait until patch X is released, whether thats May 1st or Sept 1st.


Original start date with the original concept or delay the series until the new patch is out and take advantage of what it offers.
Its a brand new series spanning just 28 days, lets get it underway and discuss future options when they're viable options rather than possibilities.
We may find that we dont need to handicap people with ballast, we may find we have 30+ people wanting to take part and 1 server just isnt enough. Lets leave the discussion of options to when they're available without risk.

The discusions about new ideas has only come about because of the low turn out for racing in the series.... 47 sign ups only led to 30 hot laps, therefore we have looked at the Patch server rule.

Originally we toyed with a ballest option, but with it being by 75KG passengers ths was a little unrealisitic

The only option we really and truely have is that all the people who did not bother sending a lap time in do so now and we can scrape together 2 divisions worth and race as originally planned.

Basically its up to the racers. . . its up to them to submit their hot laps for us to get closer to 40 racers so the 2 division thing is still a viable option..

we're not the only ones contemplating what patch to use in the league:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=401949#post401949

the more I think about it the more I think we should give a chance for patch X to come out, if it's out on the monday before the first race (or if we have a release date during that week) then we'll use that (if it's back end of that week then delay the series for a week).

If it's not officially announced to be out during the first week in May, then we should just stick with patch W for the whole series split onto 2 servers.

I say, When the league starts use the most up-to-date Officially non-test patch available. Or as people have said we could roll the league back a week or two so we can use patch X.

I'm not too bothered about the 30 people issue, I just think that if we just use smaller tracks then 15 will easily be enough. Tracks like FE club, SO sprint/classic and Aston Cadet will provide close enough racing IMO.