Quote from matze54564 :

Some players, like i have no pedals bought. Without pedals is it impossible to drive without auto-clutch.

It's still possible to drive without auto-clutch, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

If you're using auto-clutch and mouse, the auto-handbrake discussion is really a moot point because you can easily hold the brakes with one finger while flooring the gas with the other. All you need to do is release the brake finger while shifting into first. So, not having auto-handbrake really shouldn't be difficult at all for you. When dealing with three pedals, a shifter, and a handbrake, it's a different story.

IRL getting a car off the start line would be easy in regards to keeping the car still, so I think the whole discusion of autohandbrake desn't add anything significant to the starts other than reveal who actually doesn't have a car in RL

The real problems of getting high powered cars off the line is to do with revs and the clutch. And to be quite frank I think it will be a hell of a long time till you see a force feed back clutch pedal etc to enable relistic starts So again its a mute point.

So that just leaves reaction times to the green light and that is what the patch gives you

IMO anything else is just show stuff and isn't adding anything significant. Thats my 2cents

The reality is that the "auto Hand brake" does nothing in just about every track in LFS. It is just there to keep you from moving by accident on the start. the only real place it does something is Blackwood because of the hill you start on.

So, for the most part, anybody who does not like it can pretty much ignore it. I do not see it as a big deal. On most track you can pretend it is not even on.

The reason it needs to be there is because unlike real life, we do not pull up to our starting position before each race. We teleport there, and if there were no Auto Hand Barke, we would all teleport on the starting grid of Blackwood, and anybody who did not put there foot on the brake, or hit the hand brake, would just roll down the hill.

But again, on most tracks, the Auto hand brake is 100% meaningless, and to argue over something that does nothing on all but one track seems like a waste of time.

People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.

So you would want to add something that would probably never happen (letting go oh the handbrake) on any of these tracks in real life, to add realism. Makes little to no sense.

I'm really confused as to why people think it's challenging to release a button on your own at the start and how it would make anyone have a bad start.

Quote from VT-1 :

The reason it needs to be there is because unlike real life, we do not pull up to our starting position before each race. We teleport there, and if there were no Auto Hand Barke, we would all teleport on the starting grid of Blackwood, and anybody who did not put there foot on the brake, or hit the hand brake, would just roll down the hill.

We've already discussed a very simple method for addressing that issue.

Quote :

But again, on most tracks, the Auto hand brake is 100% meaningless, and to argue over something that does nothing on all but one track seems like a waste of time.

You're right. Auto-handbrake does nothing, and therefore, should be removed.

Quote :

People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.

That's the whole point! In real life, race cars don't use the handbrake to prevent rolling on the start. So, it stands to reason that if we want a realistic sim we should not use the handbrake (especially a computer controlled, automagic one) either.

Quote :

So you would want to add something that would probably never happen (letting go oh the handbrake) on any of these tracks in real life, to add realism. Makes little to no sense.

Re-read the posts. We're not saying that the driver should have to let go of the handbrake. We're saying that the handbrake should never be engaged in the first place.

Quote from VT-1 :

Makes little to no sense.

Ah the voice of reason

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Because now you can false start, but you still can't have a "bad" start. All that's needed is to rev the car to redline and then drop it in first gear when the lights turn green. Because of the auto-handbrake, drivers don't have to worry about holding the car with the brake and have zero risk of rolling on the start. Before there was no skill involved in getting a good start - you would simply hold the gas to the floor. All that's changed now is that you are required to shift into first once the lights turn green.

That's all down to the clutch being not modeled properly and the best way of starting being redlining (those can't be changed in this patch). But those things have nothing to do with the handbrake. Yes, without auto handbrake there is a chance of rolling, but on level-starting-grid tracks removing it would have no effect at all since you wouldn't need to use it at all.
Anyway you forgot timing. Now you need also time your start correctly. Imho the timing is the most important skill you need for a good start. The auto-handbrake, auto-clutch or whatever help have less importance than timing. Taking those helps away just makes accidents that have not necesseraly anything to do with skill easier to happen. Biggest worry is a sudden restart penalty if you don't notice to apply brakes when the race starts or even when lag happens and you get penalty which is just bad luck.

Quote from axus :

As for the starts discussion, the only thing that would make them more interesting, and this should be kept optional because it would be admittedly unintuitive at first sight is the suggestion that was floating around long before the patch to use the brake pedal as the clutch at the start and have it automatically switch back to being the brake at some point (either ~5s after the start, or at the press of a button).

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=395019#post395019

Seen this nice script made by Vain 6 months ago? It works and it's great. Even had to put that link to my sig because seems like not many people have seen that...

Quote from VT-1 :

People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.

If you were making a start in a BL GP type downhill start line, you would use your brakes. In LFS you don't need to do that thanks to the magical auto handbrake. You see the problem?

This handbrake thing ruined the test patch thread, my apologies for that. Even that looks like this won't be part of LFS anytime soon, which I find sad in away (in a way that it makes just little suspicious about the future developement regarding clutch & stalling, when this issue turned out to be such a big no). At least now this yacking has done it's purpose because now Scawen gave a better answer. Thanks for that.

"That would be totally unrealistic, because handbrakes in cars are not buttons"

Valid point but the fact that most of the players use paddles to shift on all road cars instead of shifters, kind of neutralizes that point... should all road cars turn to auto gearboxes then? I agree on everything what Cue-Ball & BB Turbo said.

And this discussion has related too much only to the start. Main thing is that the handbrake shouldn't be working automatically in the first place (outside of race starts). I can drop this suggestion right away when someone proves that all of the (real life equivalents) cars in LFS has some kind of automatic handbrake system, that requires about 1/3 throttle input to be released.

And what comes to keyboard players, if playability with a keyboard is such a high priority we shouldn't be even talking about this game as a sim.

Quote from boosterfire :

You can't force everybody to have the best equipment there is.

Yeah, right. Sim racing is all about expensive controls. I'm sorry but that is total BS. Just because you don't want to invest anything on you racing controls (a wheel and pedals) doesn't mean that there couldn't be support for those "expensive controls.

Quote from sinbad :

The button clutch argument goes on under a different name. Still automatic unless you have an analogue controller assigned to it!! You want a boost for having a manual choke control button on your wheel in the UF1000?

Just because 3 pedal systems are not yet popular the need for button clutch exists. I wouldn't mind if I had that manual choke button, or a real replica of the interiors of every car in LFS to be used with "proper" controls. Because that is actually what might be enough for you then? Driving a Ferrari F40 in a sim would be totally unrealistic if you were actually sitting inside a a cockpit replica of Porsche 911?

Just because total simulation isn't possible doesn't mean that various small tasks of race driving should be left for computers. The whole idea that if you can't simulate it to 100% realism doesn't mean that it shouln't be simulated at all. A button clutch is just a button clutch and has very little resemblance with real clutch. But the main thing with is the fact that you manually need to operate it. Without your manual pressing of the said button nothing would happen. If you let the computer do it for you, you are using a driving aid.

In the end, there are driving aids for people with "simple controls". But if you have the proper hardware you should be able to tick all those aids off and enjoy the full blast of smoke and particles that misshifting or clutch burning can cause. Even if it means that the buttons are in different places and some of the less race-related stuff is missing. Or the way you operate the various instruments is different.

+1 to axus
i already hold and release the clutch at the start havin to do this with 5 other buttons is just plain silly

Quote from axus :

I'm really confused as to why people think it's challenging to release a button on your own at the start and how it would make anyone have a bad start.

It's not even that though, it's the argument that the handbrake shouldn't be on to begin with.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

It's not even that though, it's the argument that the handbrake shouldn't be on to begin with.

it has to be otherwise your car would automatically roll away before youre even in control and lag would cause a whole bunch of false starts

Quote from Shotglass :

it has to be otherwise your car would automatically roll away before youre even in control and lag would cause a whole bunch of false starts

already discussed and solved...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

We're saying that the handbrake should never be engaged in the first place.

And there lies the source of discusion you see LFS as needing to be as real as it can get, were I see it as a game that has realistic physics and requires skill to play but at the same is user friendly and provides a relaxed atmosphere to hang out with other petrol heads.

LFS has a good balance of realism and gameplay I think and while it would be nice to have increased options and flexibility in realism and gameplay, I think it would be a mistake to go too far in one direction or another In reality you are limited in how realistic it can be by the available hardware and PC power present to date.

Quote from Glenn67 :

And there lies the source of discusion you see LFS as needing to be as real as it can get, were I see it as a game that has realistic physics and requires skill to play but at the same is user friendly and provides a relaxed atmosphere to hang out with other petrol heads.

That's right. Since LFS is still a game, it needs to be equally 'fun' to everybody with all kinds of different hardware and needs. Which has been pretty succesfull and has made this the popular and userfriendly sim that LFS is.

Quote from Glenn67 :

And there lies the source of discusion you see LFS as needing to be as real as it can get, were I see it as a game that has realistic physics and requires skill to play but at the same is user friendly and provides a relaxed atmosphere to hang out with other petrol heads.

I think that the more realistic LFS is, the more I will enjoy it. I want to feel like I'm driving a car, not playing a game. LFS feels like that except for a few things which can ruin the immersion. I also love LFS because it makes joining a game or hosting a game so dead simple. Doing the same thing in GTR is a giant pain. The physics and excellent connectivity are what make LFS the sim that it is. Making it even more realistic can only improve the experience.

Quote :

LFS has a good balance of realism and gameplay I think and while it would be nice to have increased options and flexibility in realism and gameplay, I think it would be a mistake to go too far in one direction or another In reality you are limited in how realistic it can be by the available hardware and PC power present to date.

I agree that some concessions must be made because it's not possible to 100% recreate the act of driving a real car. However; I think that things like auto-clutch, auto-handbrake, etc. are going too far in the wrong direction. It's one thing to put something into a sim to compensate for what you lose by not being in the car (increased skid sounds, for instance), but to make the car control itself is the wrong way to go about it.

The bottom line is that auto-handbrake doesn't solve any problem that couldn't be solved in another, more realistic, more effective way.

The trouble is that LFS doesn't have proper clutch/transmission simulation yet, and there is little damage from over-revving. So no matter how the handbrake is done, or how the brakes are held, it's still just a case of engaging first gear/dumping the clutch at high revs and wheelspinning off the line. The handbrake isn't the cause of this!

If wheelspin properly reduced acceleration (and it doesn't in LFS at the moment), and if over-revving was a bad thing (it isn't in LFS at the moment) then people would have to think a bit more carefully about starts. If stalling was implemented then that would mean the line between bogging down (also not well portrayed in LFS) and wheelspinning [both leading to bad starts] would be narrower and hence more fun/challenging.

Of course, autoclutch people will rarely stall on the starts - what's the point of an autoclutch that makes you stall!

I'm not bothered in my limited testing of the handbrake being on. And I think the false starts thing is great. But until damage/stalling/wheelspin enhancements are released then the starts will still be a weak point.

Ultimately I would like all controls to be manual - no auto-handbrake, no auto-clutch - and have driver aids balanced so that auto-clutching isn't a huge advantage...

However, if the car is dumped on the grid at the start there NEEDS to be some way of stopping the car moving - a pop-up window is a horrid way of doing that in my opinion. But perhaps if formation laps were implemented then it will be up to the drivers to brake/handbrake on the grid to stop moving. Then it will be great.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The trouble is that LFS doesn't have proper clutch/transmission simulation yet, and there is little damage from over-revving. So no matter how the handbrake is done, or how the brakes are held, it's still just a case of engaging first gear/dumping the clutch at high revs and wheelspinning off the line. The handbrake isn't the cause of this!

Agreed. The handbrake isn't the cause, but it's just one more little thing on the road to realism. Better to take care of it now so that users will be used to it by the time stalling is implemented.

Quote :

If wheelspin properly reduced acceleration (and it doesn't in LFS at the moment), and if over-revving was a bad thing (it isn't in LFS at the moment) then people would have to think a bit more carefully about starts. If stalling was implemented then that would mean the line between bogging down (also not well portrayed in LFS) and wheelspinning [both leading to bad starts] would be narrower and hence more fun/challenging.

Again, I'm in total agreement. Even if the auto handbrake is removed, starts still require very little skill. Baby steps.

Quote :

Ultimately I would like all controls to be manual - no auto-handbrake, no auto-clutch - and have driver aids balanced so that auto-clutching isn't a huge advantage...

Hallelujah!

Quote :

However, if the car is dumped on the grid at the start there NEEDS to be some way of stopping the car moving - a pop-up window is a horrid way of doing that in my opinion. But perhaps if formation laps were implemented then it will be up to the drivers to brake/handbrake on the grid to stop moving. Then it will be great.

Formation laps would be a nice addition. I think MoE is the only league that does any sort of formation lap right now. I'm curious though, why would you oppose clicking an "OK" button or a "Go to Grid" button? It seems like the perfect solution to me. That way you ensure that all drivers are actually ready to race before they go to the starting line. This would solve the problem of suddenly appearing on the grid and rolling, as well as solving the issue of people who have stepped away from their machines but still been placed on the grid.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I'm curious though, why would you oppose clicking an "OK" button or a "Go to Grid" button? It seems like the perfect solution to me. That way you ensure that all drivers are actually ready to race before they go to the starting line. This would solve the problem of suddenly appearing on the grid and rolling, as well as solving the issue of people who have stepped away from their machines but still been placed on the grid.

I think it would be enough to get some kind of feedback from the driver to know he is still alive, a popup message is a bit too much and not all people have mouse easily available, especially if the time frame to react is short. Pushing the brake pedal or turning the steering wheel would do just fine

Quote from Hyperactive :

I think it would be enough to get some kind of feedback from the driver to know he is still alive, a popup message is a bit too much and not all people have mouse easily available, especially if the time frame to react is short. Pushing the brake pedal or turning the steering wheel would do just fine

That would work too (I suggested the brake pedal earlier in the thread). It just seems like requiring a click is not too much. It would be similar to clicking "Join Race", after the track changes. I think a click is the same method that nKP uses as well, though I don't own it, so I'm not sure.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

That would work too (I suggested the brake pedal earlier in the thread). It just seems like requiring a click is not too much. It would be similar to clicking "Join Race", after the track changes. I think a click is the same method that nKP uses as well, though I don't own it, so I'm not sure.

Applying some brake would be the best I think. Clicking a button on the screen can be hard if you can hardly reach the mouse at the first place and at the same time, holding the brake down you would prevent the possible rolling if you were driving on Blackwood and if there was no "safety brakes".

But what it comes to this handbrake realism thing, like the idiot who started this thread, I'm not sure where to stand. I'd imagine it would make things more "challenging", well hardly, but in a way. But like Tristan said, before the clutch and engine damage are modeled, the starts will probably be the same old full throttle and shift up stuff. It wouldn't take that much skill to actually release the handbrake, and could be dam irritating. I would rather heel-toe off the line, would be much more fun than pressing handbrake. Although, it wouldn't be possible for the people with 2 pedal set if the brake was used as clutch like suggested, they could of course use handbrake.

Oh, and someone mentioned force feedback pedals to be essential part of modeling clutch? I think we had a thread about that some (long) time ago, and if I recall correctly people on these forums came to a conclusion that you don't need such thing as you don't feel the bite from the pedal anyway.

Why not make the cars start in the pits, do a lap, and then line up in the correct grid order? That's how it works in real life, isn't it?

Quote from Glenn67 :

LFS has a good balance of realism and gameplay I think and while it would be nice to have increased options and flexibility in realism and gameplay, I think it would be a mistake to go too far in one direction or another

I guess since some people have that philosophy, then the point is valid unfortunately.

In my world, being balanced in this area simply means that the experience is watered down. One is either trying to create the most accurate simulation possible, or not. If not, all that exists is another driving game.

It seems odd to have the most advanced tire modelling and many other unique features that set LFS apart in terms of realism - a path that indicates what it's goals are. A sim should be raw, unforgiving, and make you think about consequences to your actions whether it be in T1 or sitting on the grid. Of course the points Tristan brought up are totally true, but they are not in the scope of this debate.

The bottom line is that IRL, your car will roll in neutral if you don't use the brakes (or handbrake if you're so inclined I suppose). Since that's what happens IRL, that's what should happen in LFS. Personally, warping to pits during a race should also mean that you've retired from the current race - that's the mindset I have. And please noone get on about changing sparkplugs and sweeping your pit area because those types of things are not in the scope of the experience that LFS currently simulates (Racing Legends anyone?), whereas being on the start grid is part of the LFS experience.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Why not make the cars start in the pits, do a lap, and then line up in the correct grid order? That's how it works in real life, isn't it?

I wouldn't mind, but a lot of people will point out how impractical that is for pick up races. At the least it would be nice for a serverside option for leagues.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

The bottom line is that IRL, your car will roll in neutral if you don't use the brakes (or handbrake if you're so inclined I suppose).

That gave me an idea. When proper clutch and engine models are done, couldn't you be on the 1st gear engine shut off on the grid when the race starts? No rolling and no need for starting notifications.