FF pedals are needed to simulate ABS as you can get a kickback/judder on the pedal as the ABS kicks in, sort of click click feel through your feet as the ABS does its job. Also brakes are pressure sensitive so could help there.

On the bite point, guess I spent too long in my old Mini (Now sadly gone as it could not deal with the huge distances I do at the mo.)

That had a real change in tension you would feel through the travel of the pedal. A sort of pressure build up and then a sudden release feel, a bit like the build up of pressure you feel on the steering wheel and then the drop/level off you feel as you transition into understeer. But then a 30 year old car feels a lot more raw to drive than modern cars.

Probably the way the clutch worked, my guess is that this transition was after the plates were apart as far as they would go so no more build up of tension of springs.

That said, I have just swapped cars with a neighbour for a few weeks as they needed an auto (My current cheapo commute car) as they have a broken clutch foot. Their car is a small Nissan and that has a very lifeless feel to all the pedals.

Trouble with driving is that there is so much, once you really look, that comes from feelings through your body but your brain makes it feel like it comes from other places. Clutch for instance, I bet everyone who drives a manual and have driven their car for a while is able to rapidly lift their foot to just before bite point and then slow down after that without even thinking about it.

Either way, the clutch implementation in LFS does need sorting

It is important to remember that some clutches are actuated mechanically, others hydraulically. Both have a different feel and can be adjusted to feel very different indeed. Hydraulic is the modern way, I'm not sure if any major manufacturer still makes mechanical clutches.

@Gunn: See my comment above. My bike has a cable clutch.

Actually, I should mention that the clutch on my bike has a total of 7 friction plates. This probably makes it much more linear than a single-plate clutch. That said, there is still a very clear point in the clutch lever travel when the revs drop just a tad.

Yeah I read your post before I made mine.

Quote from Gunn :

Yeah I read your post before I made mine.

Congrats, you should get bonus points for that.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Likewise - never felt anything through the pedal itself. This can be tested by sitting in a car with the engine off and pressing the clutch; you won't feel the biting point. Thus it's a seat-of-the-pants thing, much like brake feel. This is why FFB pedals just aren't needed imo.

Surely the counter argument is that when the plate / flywheel, etc. aren't in motion, there won't be any real feedback as such because you're purely moving things without any real resistance?

I pretty much agree that theres a psychological part to it, but there must be at least some truth to the bite point "myth"?

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Surely the counter argument is that when the plate / flywheel, etc. aren't in motion, there won't be any real feedback as such because you're purely moving things without any real resistance?

I pretty much agree that theres a psychological part to it, but there must be at least some truth to the bite point "myth"?

Well , what are we talkin about bikes or cars, if cars the resistance you will feel is the change in resistance when the arm holding the bearing moves tword the pressure plate, when the bearing comes to contact with the plate THAT is where you feel the difference...Nothin psychological about it Angry Angelillepall
This is also true when the engine is off too, there is no resistance as such from the engine.

The only difference is bits aren't rotating. The clutch springs, clearences and what-not are still going to be the same, and all you could ever feel is the change in linear force.

I've had a play in a Fulvia today (cable clutch) and couldn't 'feel' a biting point. I've had a play in my car today (hydraulic clutch) and couldn't 'feel' a biting point.

Can play on the bike later (drove to work today rather than rode).

Ok, let's not get too bogged down on what different cars/bikes give liniar feedback to the driver through the clutch pedal as some may differ to others, and what exactley a race clutch feels like..well I dunno cause I've never had the pleasure of driving a race tuned car.
Now discussing "bite-point" , I suppose the only way of telling when the disk is hitting the flywheel in LFS is either by ear, or visually seeing the rev's drop slightly as the two come to contact with one and other, and unfortunatley we don't have the physical feedback through the seat in LFS, I suppose the only reason one would need to have a good idea of where exactley it is to rectify a mistake made while changing gear and you've missed the rev range you where aiming for

Quote from Woz :

1) Allow the car engine to stall.
2) Disable auto clutch properly in manual mode.
3) Allow definition of two points in the clutch axis. First being the bite point and second being when the clutch is fully depressed. No clutch I have ever used operated over the range of the pedal travel.

+1 for Clutch Pedal overhaul.

I hope this will be soon in the Update schedule for LFS.

No G25 here but one MOMO Racing and a Thrustmaster Pedal for Clutch.

How ever you want to talk about it, even if you can't actually feel the bite point on the pedal but feel it through your body as the car starts to move etc does not actually change one simple fact...

THERE IS A BITE POINT ON A CLUTCH.

There is no argument about this simple fact (Apart from one, sorry 4WH )

It is the point where the plates start to make contact and hence transfer power to the drive wheels.

The LFS clutch at the moment just wrong and needs to allow the 2 distinct points in the travel of any clutch to be defined. The point where you start to work against the springs holding the plates together and the point where the plates are apart.

Between these points is where you control slipping of the clutch and outside these points you don't.

In relation to pedal travel the term "bite point" could be used. The point at which the plates come together in relation to how far the pedal has moved off the floor. Depending on your clutch type and adjustment the point at which the clutch actually engages as you lift the pedal is not the same for every car. The pedal feels different at this point, I would call it the "take-up point". The sensation can be felt through your body as the plates meet and the vehicle moves forward but the pedal "feels" different at this point. One becomes accustomed to their clutch and pedal feel and can anticipate the point where it "takes-up". This is probably more noticable on a mechanical clutch in a car where the clutch can be adjusted mechanically to take up at any point during pedal travel.
The presence of linkages, pulleys or levers in a mechanical system would give a pedal more "feel" at certain points regardless of the take-up point.

Is this the sort of thing people are referring to as "bite point", in relation to what they feel through the pedal?

My (RL) clutch feels completely linear. The feedback for me is the engine sound and the movement of the vehicle, not through my foot. Obviously there's a point where the clutch begins to (dis)engage, but for my car that is at about a third of the pedal's travel, not the way it is in game.

The trouble with this thread now is it has become bogged down in what you can and cant feel through the pedal. My original post had what you feel through the pedal as a side note, the main point was clutch pedal calibration and the operation of the clutch in LFS.

I use "bite point" to describe the point where the plates start to make contact and hence the car starts to move. Use "takeup point" or whatever term you feel like or was taught as you learnt to drive, there are probably loads of terms for it.

I will try again..... There are 2 points of interest within the travel of the clutch pedal IRL.

1) The point where the plates start to disengage on the way down and where the clutch is fully engaged on the way back up.

2) The point where the plates are disengaged on the way down or start to engaged on the way back up.

I DONT CARE IF YOU CAN FEEL THEM.... We all KNOW these two points exist and outside this range of the pedal travel NOTHING you do to the pedal will have any effect on the car at all.

This range exists no matter how your clutch is configured and setup it just appears in different locations within the full travel range and normally will be less than 50% of the full travel of the pedal.

Now we get to LFS, the range that effects the clutch is the entire range of the pedal, the clutch does not fully disengage until the pedal is fully in and the clutch is not fully engaged unless the pedal is fully up. This is just wrong.

The solution...........

Allow the user to mark these points in the pedal calibration screen so they can set up the clutch how they want.

I agree with ya Woz, even though I don't use a clutch pedal.

Yea, I got a bit caught up in the clutch "feeling" drifting topic when I posted on page 1. And I mean the topic drifting off it's intent, not drifting vs. racing, LOL.

I think the points shiould be set for each car and different for each car since you'l find different cars have different feel to the clutch. This would be more realistic and make you have to learn the bite points like you would in a real car. Sure you can drive a different car tiwht a clutch but if you're used to one then the other feels weird and it takes some getting used to. This shold be true in LFS also. But if it means we get the clutch fixed earlier, a fixed point for all cars would do

Quote from Woz :

The solution...........

Allow the user to mark these points in the pedal calibration screen so they can set up the clutch how they want.

When road car clutches are modified to improve their peak torque capacity, they almost always get less civilized in the process. Allowing the user to make the clutch unrealistically nice is not simulation or fair racing. Its much like allowing ridiculous steering angles.

The race cars will have low MOI multidisc clutches. In the real world, powerful road cars being thrashed hard on tracks will have clutches that are anything but smooth and linear.

Quote from skiingman :

When road car clutches are modified to improve their peak torque capacity, they almost always get less civilized in the process. Allowing the user to make the clutch unrealistically nice is not simulation or fair racing. Its much like allowing ridiculous steering angles.

The race cars will have low MOI multidisc clutches. In the real world, powerful road cars being thrashed hard on tracks will have clutches that are anything but smooth and linear.

True, a race spec clutch can be brutal compared to a road car.

After the last few posts I get the feeling a slighty modified version of the idea is called for....

You dont get to define how far the two points are apart. that is predefined for the car based on clutch type in the car. What you should have control over is where the range appears in the travel of the pedal as you do have that control.

I dont understand, why all the complaints...?
1. not a very long time ago everybody was useing 210°wheels w/o any shifter or ff. then we got theese padle shifters, and seqential up'n down shifters. now we got 900°of whhel spin and clutch pedal and H-shifter from logitech, for a reasonable price... g25 is the first of its kind at logitech, and im shure its not the last wheel with a clutchpedal and shifter. so patients, i think we'll have force feedback in our pedals soon.

2. There is a more serious problem 2 solve anyway! bite point of the brake, cause nobody can argue that brakes do have bite points

3. I have a hachi roku IRL and it has a hydraulic clutch , and the only way you feel the clutch bite is with your body (your ass ), you cant feel it through the pedal.

4. LFS is a racing sim, its not about smooth starts, for fast starts you just rev it up and jump off the clutch anyway.

I think it would be better as not to be customised by the user, because wouln't the bite point change if you had clutch wear?

Well a slider like the throttle compensation could be incorporated I'm sure and should be plenty for people to adjsut this "point". I know I use the throttle and brake adjustment myself.

Download DXTweak2 from the following site http://www.wingmanteam.com/latest_software/gadgets.htm.

Then on the clutch increase min and decrease max. Think of them as input filters, the pedal still operates over the full range but only outputs between these figures. This lets you configure the clutch to work as you would expect and not over the full range of the travel.

I really wanted to not use DXTweak2 as a solution but seeing as I still miss a good 10-20% of shifts due to the weird clutch in LFS I'll probably do it anyway.

Quote from Woz :

Download DXTweak2 from the following site http://www.wingmanteam.com/latest_software/gadgets.htm.

Then on the clutch increase min and decrease max. Think of them as input filters, the pedal still operates over the full range but only outputs between these figures. This lets you configure the clutch to work as you would expect and not over the full range of the travel.

The same effecT can be achieved by using the little "c" beside the axis indicator bar to set the pedal to work a higher point along the axis

I'm using manual clutch now and I haven't even got a G25. Doesn't half make the game more realistic when you have one hand on the wheel sometimes and you have to heel-toe.

Having said that LFS is pretty forgiving when it comes to heel-toe. You can get away with anything really.

I'd like to see more people using manual clutch and am all for the original poster's suggestions.