Now the G25 is getting snapped up by the race community it means clutch use will be more common. This means it must be time to re-visit the manual clutch in LFS.

Here are the things that appearto be needed to make it function better...

1) Allow the car engine to stall.
2) Disable auto clutch properly in manual mode.
3) Allow definition of two points in the clutch axis. First being the bite point and second being when the clutch is fully depressed. No clutch I have ever used operated over the range of the pedal travel.

This should then give a much better clutch implementation to LFS.

BTW, has anyone tried to mod the G25 clutch yet. I have the idea of removing the old spring and replacing with 2 shorter springs with a washer between, One soft and the other hard. The soft spring should compress first and then the hard spring once the soft is fully depressed as long as they have a big enough difference in strength. The idea being to give a feel of a bite point, something most PC clutch pedals do not give you.

very good idea about the springs i will mod my clutch pedal as soon as i get another wheel attached to it.

i think the biting point is more like half way and not full travel of the pedal like you have mentioned.

Yeah a nice thought, but no way I'm opening these up until they start to break.

With the G25 arrival I defenately see that now would be a perfect time to upgrade the clutch in LFS. It would defenately give me the kick to build a clutch too (with all the pressure sensitive systemes et all :nod.

And of course I'd like to get some clutch/drivetrain damage too to punish those flat-shifters. Including myself. Bad habbits

I haven't driven any car before, but I will be getting my permit soon. But, there is no "bite point" on a clutch. It depends on how fast you take your foot off the clutch. Think about it this way, if the clutch is depressed 50%, and you sit there at 25% throttle, eventually the transmission will be spinning just as fast. By realeasing the clutch pedal more, you are just making the transmission accelerate to the speed of the engine faster.

Having not driven a car, you might not realise that once pushed a so far down, the clutch plates are not touching at all. The bite point would be when you are letting the pedal back up, the clutch plates begin to touch, and you the engine begins to slow. Let up the clutch some more and, so long as it doesn't stall, you'll begin to accelerate.

just to wheel4hummer lol.

This is a fantastic idea, just got my g25 wheel bout a week back now, and the clutch immediatly biting even after taking foot up a fraction of an inch has started to get to me lol. Quite interesting to watch what happens when you stick the car in 5th and put foot down Hmm, what about that lovely clutch burn smell anyone?

lol @ no bite point. Not having a driven a car I'm surprised you decided to comment at all.

Quote from daveb948576 :

i think the biting point is more like half way and not full travel of the pedal like you have mentioned.

This depends on your car and clutch, how it's adjusted and how worn it is. The old clutch on my Miata took up right near the top of the pedal, especially once it was getting near the end of it's life. My new clutch has the bite point just above half way up.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

I haven't driven any car before, but I will be getting my permit soon. But, there is no "bite point" on a clutch. It depends on how fast you take your foot off the clutch. Think about it this way, if the clutch is depressed 50%, and you sit there at 25% throttle, eventually the transmission will be spinning just as fast. By realeasing the clutch pedal more, you are just making the transmission accelerate to the speed of the engine faster.

I can see you have a long long way to go before you can drive a manual

Clutch plates are held together by springs and as you press the clutch pedal in you are in effect working against the springs to pull/push the clutch plates apart (depends on the config). As you push the clutch in nothing will happen at first, you are just taking up the slack on the cable/springs. Then after you have taken up the slack you are then forcing the clutch plates apart and hence working against the springs. Once the plates are apart there is nothing else that will happen apart from forcing them apart from each other a bit further.

Then as you lift the clutch you will find the "bite point" is when the plates start to make contact, normally between 25% and 75% up from fully pressed in. Then the area where you make the transition between you taking taking up the spring tension in the clutch and when you no longer have any tension. Finally lifting off there is some more travel that does nothing, the cable slack again. In the transition area is the only place where you can slip the clutch.

In some cars you can feel these different points as changes in tension on the clutch pedal while other cars you dont. But in all you will feel the bite point because this is the point the car starts to move.

If you had a real clutch where it started working from the instant you pressed the pedal all the way through to the floor you would find the following problems happen as the the clutch workings and cable start to wear.

1) The clutch will always slip because it does not release fully. When this happens clutch will be dead before you can say "Whats that strange burning smell".

2) You might not be able to get the plates apart and hence have problems changing gear, this will force you to rev match before you can slot into gear.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Yeah a nice thought, but no way I'm opening these up until they start to break.

I know what you mean. Only had my G25 2 days old so dont want to kill it yet

Quote from Woz :

I know what you mean. Only had my G25 2 days old so don’t want to kill it yet

I lasted 4 days before ripping the pedals apart and remounting them so they are top pivoting .Makes it much easier to heel/toe once the spacing was adjusted.

Very easy to do, almost designed to be taken apart
Can also be put back to original, and you would never know

I agree with all the points in post 1, but I’m sure I read it’s coming at some point.

Also with just two pedals , I could left foot brake and apply some throttle as I eased of the brakes .Now , when using the clutch there’s a point when I'm off the throttle and brake and the rear gets very loose (fzr)
I think this is down to no preload on the diff (lsd)

I hope to get myself a propper kit set up soon:doh: anything would be better than a 64mb laptop and a gamepad, but I think it would be a good idea for you guy's with pedals to improvise and put some sort of adjustable "resistance" at the end of the clutch axis to simulate "bite-point".
Adjustable because I imagine each car in LFS has different "bite point".
I'd be more than happy to assist any of you looking for materials to impliment this onto your pedal, I'd say all of it could be found around the house

Quote from Woz :

2) Disable auto clutch properly in manual mode.

Do you mean remove autoclutch, or just not having it forced on the BF1 and FO8. FFS, those cars IRL would have paddles.

Quote from Woz :

Now the G25 is getting snapped up by the race community it means clutch use will be more common. This means it must be time to re-visit the manual clutch in LFS.

Here are the things that appearto be needed to make it function better...

1) Allow the car engine to stall.
2) Disable auto clutch properly in manual mode.
3) Allow definition of two points in the clutch axis. First being the bite point and second being when the clutch is fully depressed. No clutch I have ever used operated over the range of the pedal travel.

This should then give a much better clutch implementation to LFS.

BTW, has anyone tried to mod the G25 clutch yet. I have the idea of removing the old spring and replacing with 2 shorter springs with a washer between, One soft and the other hard. The soft spring should compress first and then the hard spring once the soft is fully depressed as long as they have a big enough difference in strength. The idea being to give a feel of a bite point, something most PC clutch pedals do not give you.

good idea that i will be behind you...

I'd like to see realistic clutch model with wear and proper behavior. But because I don't have a G25, going to get one when I get the money for it (if Santa doesn't bring one hehehe, won't happen I think ), I'm bit worried how the normal 2-pedallers would change gears then, so it wouldn't be a great (dis)advantage? Would it be auto only?

Quote from Blackout :

I'm bit worried how the normal 2-pedallers would change gears then, so it wouldn't be a great (dis)advantage? Would it be auto only?

Yes!! Let's cut down the LFS userbase from 30000+ to 2000, because those 2000 or so drivers have enough $$$ to buy a G25.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Do you mean remove autoclutch, or just not having it forced on the BF1 and FO8. FFS, those cars IRL would have paddles.

To avoid confusion for those that have never used the manual clutch in LFS, when I say disable autoclutch I mean in manual mode only. This should not effect people using auto clutch.

When you use manual clutch the auto clutch still operates if needed to stop the car stalling. This means is you put the car into gear while stopped the auto clutch does the same as putting in the clutch in even though you have not touched the clutch. It does similar at other points as well.

For OW cars you have the option of turning on auto clutch and are also forced sequential. This means you are working in autoclutch mode not manual so would not effect these.

I'm still not entirely convinced that there's really any noticeable "bite point" on a clutch. I know that on my bike, the clutch lever feels the same throughout its travel, and surely my fingers would be more sensitive to subtle effects than my leg. Also note that it's a cable clutch, not a hydraulic one.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about a difference in the level of force (or lack thereof) in the clutch pedal at the engagement point. I'm not debating the fact that the engagement point is in the middle of the pedal travel.

I'm in agreement with Forbin, in the way he explains his thoughts. The bite point is not felt in the clutch pedal itself, but in the seat of the pants feel when the car begins to move. It could be different with a cable clutch possibly, I have always had hydrolic clutches.

That would make sense, you're only pushing against springs which should be reasonably linear.

Yeah, the resistance is pretty much linear on all clutches I've used, some of them slightly decreasing resistance at the top. However, I've never felt a chance in resistance at the bite point.

Likewise - never felt anything through the pedal itself. This can be tested by sitting in a car with the engine off and pressing the clutch; you won't feel the biting point. Thus it's a seat-of-the-pants thing, much like brake feel. This is why FFB pedals just aren't needed imo.

Ditto the observations on clutches: resistance is linear. (And possibly futile.)

But...

Quote from tristancliffe :

This is why FFB pedals just aren't needed imo.

What about emulating warped brake rotors? ;-)

lyd

Quote from tristancliffe :

This is why FFB pedals just aren't needed imo.

Yeah, I've always wondered about that. Could it even be useful for the brake pedal? I mean, if a game simulates brake fade, surely it would just require you to push the pedal down further/harder as you would have to in real life? That would be sufficient imo.