Quote from Tomfuel :

we really need Alphabetical letters

We are currently spending a few days improving layout objects as the old ones are just too ugly. It might not be absolutely necessary before the release but we sort of fell into it, anyway it'll be done soon and had to be done at some point!

We've now got the ability to select up to 16 mappings per object, so for example we could have alphabet boards like this. Maybe a rectangle, with one letter per board.

- 1 board with letters A to M selectable
- 1 board with letters N to Z selectable
- 1 board with numbers 0 to 9 selectable

That only takes 3 object slots - not 36!

I suggest a plain (white by default) polystyrene rectangle that could stand on the ground or be floating. It could also have colours selectable.

Eric asked what size the board should be. Any ideas? I suppose not too big as you want to make words with them. But big enough to be seen from a reasonable distance.

EDIT: How about, similar size to the corner markers, but 1m high and 80cm wide, reasonable proportions for letters?

Seeing this activity I'll try to repeat something I suggested before - something we could use as turn inside curbing. Simple 1 meter long version of the same good old speed bump would be already a good solution. Optionally another version with one side more flattened than other side (longitudinally).
In some cases we can trick out some curbs using concrete objects,but they're not well suited in elevation,while the speed bumps adjust themselves on ground.
Object count raise maybe too? (I started to build a specific track in LA,but to complete it,needs a bit more than 2400 objects,3000 would be enough)

Would the kerb objects like you see at Blackwood do the job?

These look deffinitelly usable! Still would be nice to have a simple 1m speed bump too.

Quote from Scawen :

Would the kerb objects like you see at Blackwood do the job?

This would be perfect as concrete-based kerbs are a real headache to get right (mostly due to placement and orientation limitations in the editor).

Those would improve lots of layouts!

I like the idea of the the alpha boards and curbs. Defiantly going to improve a lot of layouts. 1m high and 80cm wide seems a great size.

Some polystyrene boards we can use for advert placement would be great too through the pics file. The existing ones are good but as they are solid they can't really be placed in the line of fire. And the addition of a pics layer to the back of the existing countdown boards would be great too.

Another great addition would be some big 'flag panels' similar to the ones on the blackwood back straight. Controllable via the same sort of commands as the traffic lights. Layers for Green, Red and Yellow would be great but the addition of SC, VSC and even blue would be perfection. This would open up some great options with insims for race events. I think it would be best to have them without the pole as we can just use concrete pillars where needed to make them appear 'supported' and maintain the added flexibility to 'hang' them from places.

Would be really great to have those letters as well as chalk markings for the road. So we don't have to badly build letters with turning arrows and lines.

Thanks for the feedback.

Let me try to make sure we are clear by asking some questions:

Quote from Jonathon.provost :

Some polystyrene boards we can use for advert placement would be great too through the pics file. The existing ones are good but as they are solid they can't really be placed in the line of fire.

I think you are saying: Polystyrene, movable equivalent of Banner1 and Banner2? And when you say the pics file, you mean like AX_ADS1.jpg or equivalent?

Quote from Jonathon.provost :

And the addition of a pics layer to the back of the existing countdown boards would be great too.

The countdown boards, do you mean the distance to corner markers? And so what you are suggesting is on the back of them could be mapped another slot from an AX_ADSx file?

Quote from Jonathon.provost :

Another great addition would be some big 'flag panels' similar to the ones on the blackwood back straight. Controllable via the same sort of commands as the traffic lights. Layers for Green, Red and Yellow would be great but the addition of SC, VSC and even blue would be perfection.

Good suggestion but I'll say not for this update. To get into InSim coding now is way too complicated for me as I've got a few things on the go. Just adding a few objects is about all we can do for now.

But either during public beta testing or maybe for a version after the 'big release' would be a reasonable time.

Quote from chucknorris :

Would be really great to have those letters as well as chalk markings for the road. So we don't have to badly build letters with turning arrows and lines.

Interesting idea. Let's see if Eric like the idea. I think you mean, massive flat chalk letters? I supposed they should be extended "vertically" so they are easy to read from a car like painted SLOW sign on a road?

What size would you suggest? Something like a SLOW sign?
https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/52/55/2525585_aa2c8f9d.jpg

Quote from Scawen :

I think you are saying: Polystyrene, movable equivalent of Banner1 and Banner2? And when you say the pics file, you mean like AX_ADS1.jpg or equivalent?

Yeah, exactly to both.

I suppose what might be an idea is to have the ability to have a single 'object' and then a variable on the object to select which logo to use maybe? So for example you select 'Ad Banner' (or whatever name for the movable version), and then in the options of that object, you can select 'pic1, 2, 3, 4' etc. That way we can have many different logos we can select. Might be overthinking a bit.

Quote from Scawen :

The countdown boards, do you mean the distance to corner markers? And so what you are suggesting is on the back of them could be mapped another slot from an AX_ADSx file?

Yeah sorry the distance to corner markers is what I mean. And yeah if the back of them could be mapped.

Quote from Scawen :

Good suggestion but I'll say not for this update. To get into InSim coding now is way too complicated for me as I've got a few things on the go. Just adding a few objects is about all we can do for now.

But either during public beta testing or maybe for a version after the 'big release' would be a reasonable time.

That would be great! Thanks Scawen.

Not exactly on topic, and might be a bit too much, but is there a possibility of adjusting behaviour of the chalk markings, so that they could follow/snap onto the objects underneath them? The way they currently work, they're a pain on uneven terrain, either clipping through or floating in mid-air.

I'd also suggest an alternative to current concrete objects with grip more similar to the tarmac used on tracks, the difference in grip can be a bit problematic with certain types of layouts (ie building a link between 2 parts of an existing track.


I'm liking the prospect of Alphanumeric boards and kerb objects, i'm assuming this won't be out before the big release, so any weird interactions between tyres and kerb edges that are plaguing some current tracks with existing physics should not be an issue.

Re Alphanum boards: perfect! the same size as the polystyrene marker boards would be good. Could we have left, right, up and down arrows too? I feel those are missing from the types we have in the arrow boards, but maybe they could be shoe-horned into the numbers board?

I've got a whole bunch of other suggestions which I'll save for the future as they also involve type of InSim coding you want to avoid

One thing that can be done with straightforward objects is tall scenery. An autocross layout consisting of only ground-level objects is not just aesthetically limited, the tall things really give you a good sense of where you are on the track, even if subconsciously. Everyone's faster if the track furniture is tall and plentiful around the corners, even the ones who argue it makes no difference

We're making do with concrete sculptures, but they're heavy on the object count and I've seen first hand how people from outside LFS will obsess on the blockiness of these creations and think that all of LFS is roblox-style. (See attached image: much better to drive than a plain layout, but not up to scratch aesthetically)

For example Trees, lampposts, catch-fencing, billboards, footbridges, houses/buildings/fascias, stadium stands, radio towers... literally anything tall yoinked from what we've got already in LFS would be a huge help.

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for the feedback.

Interesting idea. Let's see if Eric like the idea. I think you mean, massive flat chalk letters? I supposed they should be extended "vertically" so they are easy to read from a car like painted SLOW sign on a road?

What size would you suggest? Something like a SLOW sign?
https://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/52/55/2525585_aa2c8f9d.jpg

I like that a lot.

Alphanum polystyrene would be great ! i suggest this some time ago

in addition : what do you you think about a skinnable banner ? just like the existing banners but with possibility to custom with our organisation logo or event announcement

in any case : that is a great news about you are working on

Quote from Racon :

Re Alphanum boards: perfect! the same size as the polystyrene marker boards would be good. Could we have left, right, up and down arrows too? I feel those are missing from the types we have in the arrow boards, but maybe they could be shoe-horned into the numbers board?

Eric has a plan to add all 8 arrow directions instead of just the "keep left" and "keep right" directions on the metal standing board. I'm not sure if that does all you want or have a better idea. Or if it's important to have arrows on the alphanumeric boards.

We are actually right on the question of alphanumeric boards now. With 36 slots used for A-Z and 0-9 there are 12 spare slots.

We have proposed use for these 12 "spare" slots but I want to ask you if some swaps would be better.

BOARD1: A B C D E F G H I J K L M _ < >
BOARD2: N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z ! & @
BOARD3: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 # * % + - _

That's what Eric suggested. I guess one of the _ is a actually a SPACE. I don't know if < and > should actually be a triangle or arrow instead? And are there any better choices than & ! + - % * _ ?

I suppose to my mind the most useful extras are: SPACE # < > @ (not sure about the others)

Purely inconclusive but : . ( ) characters spring to mind (lap/split timing syntax for example).

OK here's my new proposal for 12 (including sicotange suggestion)

SPACE
< > ^ v (triangles or arrows)
# @
: . ( )
SPARE


About tall objects and different concrete objects with tarmac surfaces, I have to put the brakes on because what happens is we are straying into track editor type territory. Things getting very big might start to mess up how the system works and we are just talking about a couple of days' update right now, not a big new project.

I got to ask one question regarding the concrete objects:

Is it possible to make them procedural/parametric? So the users could select own length/height/possibly radius and other geometric parameters instead of relying on few predetermined sizes and shapes the editor currently offers. Making a long straight eats up so many 16m wall objects and creation of a smooth curve with many short walls also cuts deep into the object count limit. I got into replicating some real life street tracks recently and this became a huge bottleneck in what can be made.

Or would that require complete overhaul of the layout editor system for this kind of object?

Yes to change the concrete objects is a major task. It's mainly because the layout objects are only 8 bytes each. Might be easier if one day they became 16-byte objects. You can see how tightly packed the concrete objects are here: https://www.lfs.net/programmer/lyt

Intermediate solutions could be extra types of concrete objects with different bit pattern interpretations, but probably better solution would be to move to 16-byte as mentioned.

I just can't get into that at the moment, just trying to finish a few last graphical and editor things so I am free to work on tyres in January.

Understood, thanks for clearing it up

Quote from Scawen :

OK here's my new proposal for 12 (including sicotange suggestion)

SPACE
< > ^ v (triangles or arrows)
# @
: . ( )
SPARE

That looks good to me. Perhaps the spare could be a forward slash? Makes for a good separator, and I'm sure people will be writing URLs with these boards too.

8 directions on the metal stand sounds like a good idea too. I'm only after the upwards arrow myself, to use as a 'straight on' indicator, but these things tend to have new uses invented for them once they're here, including them all would be good.

Quote from Scawen :

About tall objects and different concrete objects with tarmac surfaces, I have to put the brakes on because what happens is we are straying into track editor type territory. Things getting very big might start to mess up how the system works and we are just talking about a couple of days' update right now, not a big new project.

Fair enough. You should see the things I didn't suggest

Could 'a few tall things' go on one of the infamous lists, maybe? The simpler ones would be quite low-hanging fruit compared to surfaces, I imagine.

Scawen, I read all your comments, but I apologize in advance cause I did not read all the thread, so this is my short suggestion list, may be something was already be proposed.

All concrete objects having colours selectable.

Street lamps: they would be the source of light during an evening/night event, otherwise almost any layout would be forced to be used only during the day (and we don't want that, do we?).

Speed road bump object more customizable, in particular to be more wide and more/less tall.

About the lights in the attached screenshot:

This start lights object is 5 all attached in a single object, with:

left red as red1
next two as red2
next two as red3

Is that how you would like them? I was wondering if it is more useful to have a single start light unit (with red1 and green) so you can control them individually from InSim?

Assuming we would want to recreate F1-style lights (1-2-3-4-5-0 red lights) it would probably be handy to control them individually.

Quote from Scawen :

Is that how you would like them? I was wondering if it is more useful to have a single start light unit (with red1 and green) so you can control them individually from InSim?

Insim control will be more useful for sure. Also, I have one suggestion - I think it would be cool to be able to place grass. ( and other stuff like trees, bushes - with collision ofc )

Just a suggestion, if it is too much work that will slow the process of update, it can be done after the big update.