I'm an OSW DD servo wheel user and recently I invited a racing club coach to find better wheel settings matched to real world sports car. As he prefers LFS than others, he firstly tested the demo FR street car. He mentionedthat it is very similar to BMW318. Having some test, he told that the car movement and feeling is very good before and on the limit. But the self alignment torque, during oversteer and its correction, seems too high.

In the game settings, is there any settings related to SAT power? It would very appreciated for developers comment if current SAT is matched to their intension especially for the strong wheels like OSW.

I just tried demo version once and I'd like to purchade this game soon after trying some more times in demo version.

Did you try to change the cars setup? Less camber maybe.

Quote from Gutholz :

Did you try to change the cars setup? Less camber maybe.

I changed just front camber to -1 ~ -1.5 degree. The car becomes loose but the torque is still there.

Caster is the setting you're looking for.

Quote from Forbin :

Caster is the setting you're looking for.

Thanks for yor answer. But actually what I want is not car settings but steering wheel settings. Actually other SIMs are also similar when it comes to SAT. I think it's one of the boost for low power steering wheel or it is current implementation. If it is the latter, can someone explain why SAT is higher in most SIMs?

The only setting in game is force feedback strength. You can try different combinations of in game FF and driver FF strength.

I think the problem is your setup. The easiest way to test this would be to try some setups from the files section. The XRG can be set up so that the wheel becomes very light when oversteering.

Quote from bobloblaw :

The only setting in game is force feedback strength. You can try different combinations of in game FF and driver FF strength.

I think the problem is your setup. The easiest way to test this would be to try some setups from the files section. The XRG can be set up so that the wheel becomes very light when oversteering.

Yes, I only see FFB power in game settings. In case of rF2, many others can be modified via direct file access although there seems no setting directly related to SAT.

Regarding OSW settings, there are not so many things to do. unless he is just a starter, it's hard to expect error at the settings. It just make small difference at feeling. By using OSW, I can feel more FFB generated from game, that's why I csn say SAT seems too much.

One question, what are the parameters when game gives FFB to steering wheel? Are they maybe position , torque and speed?

Quote from softslider :

One question, what are the parameters when game gives FFB to steering wheel? Are they maybe position , torque and speed?

As far as I understand LFS calculates the overall force acting on the front wheels as part of the physics calculation loop. The lateral portion of that force is then applied on the steering wheel through FFB. One potential source of inaccuracy is that LFS doesn't know the parameters of the FFB motor in your wheel so it cannot reproduce the strength of the force accurately. That's why there is the "FFB strength" slider in the controller options.

Quote from MadCatX :

As far as I understand LFS calculates the overall force acting on the front wheels as part of the physics calculation loop. The lateral portion of that force is then applied on the steering wheel through FFB. One potential source of inaccuracy is that LFS doesn't know the parameters of the FFB motor in your wheel so it cannot reproduce the strength of the force accurately. That's why there is the "FFB strength" slider in the controller options.

Thanks. Overall power can be set with the slider but what I mentioned is just SAT.

You cannot change any FFB parameters individually. As far as I understand how LFS works inside, it's physics engine doesn't know anything about SAT explicitly. The physics engine works with forces acting upon the car. If a car starts to slide, the laws of physics result in a force that pulls the front wheels into the direction of the slide. LFS' engine implements these physical principles and therefore you can feel the wheel doing what you'd expect to happen. However, as the "SAT effect" is just one of the results of the physics engine and not something "hardwired" in the code, you cannot tweak it. If the SAT feeling is it fact too strong, it's a deficiency of the physics engine itself.

I think the only thing the game sends the driver is a torque value. What madcat says is essentially the extent of the community's knowledge. You may need to use an unrealistic setup to achieve realistic feel. For example, parallel steer, which is normally 100% in race cars, is set around 70%-80% for most setups.

Quote from MadCatX :

You cannot change any FFB parameters individually. As far as I understand how LFS works inside, it's physics engine doesn't know anything about SAT explicitly. The physics engine works with forces acting upon the car. If a car starts to slide, the laws of physics result in a force that pulls the front wheels into the direction of the slide. LFS' engine implements these physical principles and therefore you can feel the wheel doing what you'd ㅅexpect to happen. However, as the "SAT effect" is just one of the results of the physics engine and not something "hardwired" in the code, you cannot tweak it. If the SAT feeling is it fact too strong, it's a deficiency of the physics engine itself.

Thanks for clarification. I was told that LFS treats the car not as a chunk of mass but as a combination of several objects like engine, transmission and so on. Maybe due to this, I feel very natural than other SIMs when I do something like arab drift motion. The weigh tansition feels very nice. Neverthless I'm fighting with oversteer correction rather than controlling although ingame FFB setting is 14.

Not sure if this is true as I didn't experience. But according to some experienced guys, there are really some race cars showing strong SAT but mostly they don't have so much torque but mostly there are horsepower in SAT which means no need to fight against steering wheel. That's why I write this.

Quote from bobloblaw :

I think the only thing the game sends the driver is a torque value. What madcat says is essentially the extent of the community's knowledge. You may need to use an unrealistic setup to achieve realistic feel. For example, parallel steer, which is normally 100% in race cars, is set around 70%-80% for most setups.

Thanks for your suggestion. Actually I see the strong SAT in other SIMs as well. As the racing club coach strongly recommend LFS to me who likes feeling real wrold, I tried LFS but there is almost same when it comes to SAT although I feel good at others.

BTW can you please explain more details on you last comment mentioning parallel steer as I'm no expert at car settings yet.

Quote from softslider :

BTW can you please explain more details on you last comment mentioning parallel steer as I'm no expert at car settings yet.

Here's a bit I did for a thread from earlier this year: The problem that the Ackermann angle (or parallel steer) solves is that when the wheels are 100% parallel, the inside wheel is dragged sideways rather than rolling in the direction of the turn. This means the tyre is actually resisting the car's efforts to turn into the corner by providing friction in the opposite direction to the turn. (In other words, the inside wheel travels around a smaller circle than the outside wheel, and needs to be turned a few more degrees than the outside wheel to follow the tighter arc.)

Increasing the angle (ie, lowering the value) points the inside wheel into the direction of the turn and decreases this friction. Overloading the angle will increase the sensitivity of your steering, making it easier to turn in as it is now dragging the tyre into the corner, but may cause the car to oversteer if the weight comes forward onto the front tyres suddenly. Likewise, slightly underloading the angle can be used to correct cars that have a tendency to suddenly oversteer at high speeds.

Something to keep in mind: Either way you choose to adjust the angle, anything off the neutral angle will cause greater friction on the tyre when cornering, causing it to heat up and degrade quicker.

Quote from Shirtkicker :

Here's a bit I did for a thread from earlier this year: The problem that the Ackermann angle (or parallel steer) solves is that when the wheels are 100% parallel, the inside wheel is dragged sideways rather than rolling in the direction of the turn. This means the tyre is actually resisting the car's efforts to turn into the corner by providing friction in the opposite direction to the turn. (In other words, the inside wheel travels around a smaller circle than the outside wheel, and needs to be turned a few more degrees than the outside wheel to follow the tighter arc.)

Increasing the angle (ie, lowering the value) points the inside wheel into the direction of the turn and decreases this friction. Overloading the angle will increase the sensitivity of your steering, making it easier to turn in as it is now dragging the tyre into the corner, but may cause the car to oversteer if the weight comes forward onto the front tyres suddenly. Likewise, slightly underloading the angle can be used to correct cars that have a tendency to suddenly oversteer at high speeds.

Something to keep in mind: Either way you choose to adjust the angle, anything off the neutral angle will cause greater friction on the tyre when cornering, causing it to heat up and degrade quicker.

Now I got to know what it means. But what I tried is XR GT street car. Isn't it related?

Maybe, although I can't say I have any practical experience of it - as Bobloblaw said, most LFS setups use 70-80% because it makes the car easier to turn into corners. It's quite possible that the SAT seems higher because of it...

For what its worth, using a LFS force feedback setting around 40%-60% and adjusting the force to taste in the wheel's driver is the generally recommended way to go. Make sure all effects other than force feedback are off in the driver (if there are any).

In theory, increasing the front tire pressure should reduce self aligning torque, but the biggest changes should come from toe out, less parallel steer, more caster.

It is likely a failure of the current tire model which is currently being rewritten.