The online racing simulator
How complicated can a tire model become
(143 posts, started )
This is one of the best Best threads i have read since 5 years. Please no OffTopic.

I can imagine that realizing an accurate realtime (tyre)physics model is an achievement which could lead to a great interest among car manufactures. As i am informed, today it takes much time to simulate the things we need for LFS in realtime even for big companies. I dont think VW picked LFS for the Scirocco only for commercial reasons.

Just my 2 cents after such a long time.
Keep patient!
#77 - CSU1
Quote from Major Pain :This is one of the best Best threads i have read since 5 years. Please no OffTopic.

I can imagine that realizing an accurate realtime (tyre)physics model is an achievement which could lead to a great interest among car manufactures. As i am informed, today it takes much time to simulate the things we need for LFS in realtime even for big companies. I dont think VW picked LFS for the Scirocco only for commercial reasons.

Just my 2 cents after such a long time.
Keep patient!

...if they can do for the tyre what they done for the steering and suspension we'll be graaaand
Scawen is clearly stuck for some time with this, but that's ok, it's not an easy problem. What I don't get is why does he want to do that all alone? Even the brightest people need some outside help from time to time, scientists don't work all by themselves most of the time or at least get their stuff checked by others. So why not get help? It might turn out that what he wants is theoretically impossible, or bumped into a problem that mathematicians struggle to solve for decades, he just doesn't see it... otherwise 4 years (or how many is it now?) with just one aspect of the game is... well just a waste of time, really.
I suggest to totally forget the chance of having some new stuff in LFS in the future. Enjoy the current LFS (if you still can) and find another racing games too. Sad but true.
Quote from ASR Sanchez :I suggest to totally forget the chance of having some new stuff in LFS in the future. Enjoy the current LFS (if you still can) and find another racing games too. Sad but true.

No and no.
Do you see any progress in the last 1-2 years which get us closer to the S3 or Rocco or anything else major upgrade?
mp update, dedi update
And on top of that do you have proof that Scawen has been sitting and doing nothing? I am pretty sure he did a lot and therefore we ARE getting closer to S3.
Quote from Major Pain :This is one of the best Best threads i have read since 5 years. Please no OffTopic.

#85 - Be2K
Quote :I am going to refrain from updating for these changes until after I address the wandering issue (which I am expanding in intent to the 'transient grip' issue since the soft tires were put in for that reason in the first place). This is for several reasons.

A) Stiffening up, as suspected, might fix wandering. But in a moddable sim, we might still want overly-accessible cars to work well (meaning with very soft tires, high optimum slip angles, little drop-off past peak alpha, etc). We also do not want drifting purposed cars to wander down straights.

B) The steady state liability still exists, even though it may be minimized, and with the soft-tire parameters, it may be easier to judge non-stiffness based fixes. IOW, we have a known dragon lurking, and some high confidence ideas to slay that dragon.

C) Flat or flattening tires. A compromised tire will be soft.

D) As good as possible approximation of a dynamic model. I hope to get the true dynamic model in that I've been working on, eventually, but when that happens we'll still need a steady state approximation for AI, latency hiding, etc (due to CPU budget).

With the goal of a dynamic model it seems to be an impressive work for the CPU

Quote :Worked mostly on the transient grip bolt-on. The spring/damper based version is turning out to be either very hard to calibrate, or is not complete enough of a concept. It shows flashes of greatness, such as when the car is continuously turning the same direction when you try to induce a snap, but can have some awful side effects when the car shifts weight from one side to the other. I did get the FA close, but it is a tricky business. Too tricky for practical use at this point.

One cause of this is that to do this with the spring damper approach; we are basically integrating over time a concept of "grip space velocity", which in some cases therefore ventures into places we don't want it. Putting tons of damping on it to prevent that seems to kill the benefit, so you have to dial the parameters "just right", but that window is so small that I think even changing the setup on a car might get back out of the window.

So I tried another approach which is to more directly just cap the grip-space velocity and not have a spring damper at all. So if the tire model attempts to move the grip faster than the cap, we just move it at the cap speed. This also has the benefit of having only one parameter (the cap) and sweet spot for that parameter is much wider than the other approach. The problem with this approach is that it is less powerful. So far I cannot say it is strong enough to overshoot on purpose (make the tires extra benign) if we wanted to. IOW, at this point it just takes some edge off of the snap, but is hard pressed to remove it.

Speaking of the edge, for testing I had to go to tires with slip grip well less than stick grip to really get much snap at all.

I need to try to set up some offline tests to capture more of this on graphs, to maybe get some insight into more aspects of the transient grip issue at the practical empirical level, so maybe we can make this approach more complete (and powerful).

And here it comes. The Tires arent the only thing what needs to be redone on this Project. The required calculations seems to be exploding. I'll hope that scawen wont have a burn-out on that
Quote from Sobis :And on top of that do you have proof that Scawen has been sitting and doing nothing?

Can you prove otherwise?
Quote from Be2K :I'll hope that scawen wont have a burn-out on that

CPU in his computer might have
There has been quite some good discussion in this thread. Phew, it's been forever since I even posted here. I am learning a lot from this thread though, and that's awesome. Keep up the spirited discussions.
I second ASR Sanchez's statements.

MP / Dedicated servers are not parts of core game, core game is all about driving/physics/car models/tracks and for those there haven't really been anything really usefull in many years....

Some migh say that how can you act like that making statements that anything haven't been done, but can you prove otherwise?

Has there been any updates that have proven "non-believers" wrong, showing the community what has been done and what needs to be done conserning the real core of the game?
updating the core of the game is the hardest. that's why you didn't see them doing that the past years. The dev's don't update something untill they have it finished. That's why you won't see half finished tire models like in iracing or rfactor 2 etc. I do, just like others trust the developers a 100% that they are still working on it. They wouldn't update the dedi servers multiplayer smoothening etc if they have given up the game.

So my hope still remains, it's your choice if you trust them or not. that's why there are so many big discussions on this forum.
I'm hopeful too. The problem is, just like Valve with HL3, the longer you leave it between updates, the more people are going to expect from it. And to avoid disappointment the devs are going to try to keep adding more stuff which then takes extra time.

So just like HL3 is pretty much going to be either the messiah of gaming or a huge disappointment, Scawen and the lads are going to either release something that makes you wonder what took so long, or blow everyone's mind with how amazing it is. I'm hoping for the latter.

Not that I can race that much any more anyway... [sulk sulk sulk]
My last hope to see some fresh stuff on LFS was Lynce. (even if he did almost graphic changes). But he left us too. Skawen says nothing, only that it will be done when it will be done. . But keep it up, because if because by some miracle the S3 will be released, you can say to us: "hah morrons, we told us that it will come out" . Sorry for my bad english, and also sorry for off topic.
I admire and pity you naive guys at the same time.
Quote from CodeLyoko1 :updating the core of the game is the hardest. that's why you didn't see them doing that the past years. The dev's don't update something untill they have it finished. That's why you won't see half finished tire models like in iracing or rfactor 2 etc. I do, just like others trust the developers a 100% that they are still working on it. They wouldn't update the dedi servers multiplayer smoothening etc if they have given up the game.

So my hope still remains, it's your choice if you trust them or not. that's why there are so many big discussions on this forum.

Again, core game is more than tire physics, its tracks and also there are cars. You can't just concentrate on tire physics alone, throw couple of meaningless mp/server updates, and yes meaningless because of the decreasing popularity of the game and why the popularity of the game is decreasing you may ask?

Its because the core game doesnt get any updates that are pushing the game forwards... MP/Servers update dont change the game dramatically, you are still playing the same game with sam physics/cars/tracks... its like driving the same car on the same road for the rest of your life, who would do that?

And like many others have said: if the game coding if overwhelming to Scawen, why dont ask someone to help him or outsource some parts?
#95 - Be2K
As Scawen posted he understood now, that his programming would never lead to his ultimate Goal.

The Core Game would change if LFS gets some Weather Effects and some more types of Wheelprofiles like Soft / Medium / Intermediate / Wets.

I know it sounds more like an F1 game, but the actual development of Motorsportseries are going to this direction - More types of Tires/Wheels
It's literally "wheels". Each tire in the pits should have its own rim, forming a combination which is a wheel. There's no time for swapping rubber when your teammate is doing near-ground flying on the track.
Quote from Keling :It's literally "wheels". Each tire in the pits should have its own rim, forming a combination which is a wheel. There's no time for swapping rubber when your teammate is doing near-ground flying on the track.

tires sounds better
Wheels are the things that tyres are fitted to. The rims are PARTS OF THE WHEEL that stop the tyre coming off. The assembly together is known as "the wheel", as it's assumed you rarely have one without the other on a car.
You guys are tiring me.

How complicated can a tire model become
(143 posts, started )
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