Jup, just tested the FO8, it's much easier to keep under control. The difference between a almost perfect start and a full throttle one was about 0.07 seconds over a distance of 40 metres (2.80/2.87). And believe me, it took many many tries to pull off a nearly perfect start.
@bob : I didn't disagree with the fact that it is easy to start it without spinning. But without steering input it is unstable ...
@ball bearing turbo :
Why is it counterproductive? It is important! Every steering input costs some time. And if we are talking about 0.07 seconds in 40 meters this makes a real difference.
This steering could exactly match these 0.07 seconds loss if going full throttle.
It is important to minimize such things. If testing acceleration over more than 1 gear it is also important to use automatic, because different shifting points, even if it are just 100 rpm, do make a difference.
@android :
Even if these about 0.07 seconds difference are a result of tyre physics and less grip with spinning wheels and not because you corrected the steering a little in order to keep the F08 stable they are far to less.
If you could possible do a 0.07 seconds better start in real life against going full throttle I bet most people would do full throttle in real life too. It may be easier to find the point IRL but as you see in real races there are a lot of differences at the start in race cars without automatic traction control.
The difference between different drivers are far more than 0.07 seconds, eventhough nobody goes full throttle and everyone tries to get a good start. There are a lot of grades between a perfect start and a bad start.
A lot of different fast drivers at start. It's not only good and bad start. It is good start, not as good but good, medium, slow, very slow and as bad as going full throttle. So this better point of throttle than full throttle must be very wide IRL. Otherwise lot of people wouldn't try to find it if they highly risk to go slower than with full throttle.
I think the problem of LFS isn't the grip at the good point. It is the grip beyond slightly spinning wheels. Grip should get less and less. It makes a difference if tyres are spinning like 20% or like 90+% with full throttle. Car shouldn't move much with madly spinning wheels. But in LFS mad spinning wheels are equal to slightly to much spinning wheels, which is very good to accelerate.
IRL even a start with very shortly spinning wheels and then no spinning should be faster than a mad full throttle start without any back moving of the pedal.
@ball bearing turbo :
Why is it counterproductive? It is important! Every steering input costs some time. And if we are talking about 0.07 seconds in 40 meters this makes a real difference.
This steering could exactly match these 0.07 seconds loss if going full throttle.
It is important to minimize such things. If testing acceleration over more than 1 gear it is also important to use automatic, because different shifting points, even if it are just 100 rpm, do make a difference.
@android :
Even if these about 0.07 seconds difference are a result of tyre physics and less grip with spinning wheels and not because you corrected the steering a little in order to keep the F08 stable they are far to less.
If you could possible do a 0.07 seconds better start in real life against going full throttle I bet most people would do full throttle in real life too. It may be easier to find the point IRL but as you see in real races there are a lot of differences at the start in race cars without automatic traction control.
The difference between different drivers are far more than 0.07 seconds, eventhough nobody goes full throttle and everyone tries to get a good start. There are a lot of grades between a perfect start and a bad start.
A lot of different fast drivers at start. It's not only good and bad start. It is good start, not as good but good, medium, slow, very slow and as bad as going full throttle. So this better point of throttle than full throttle must be very wide IRL. Otherwise lot of people wouldn't try to find it if they highly risk to go slower than with full throttle.
I think the problem of LFS isn't the grip at the good point. It is the grip beyond slightly spinning wheels. Grip should get less and less. It makes a difference if tyres are spinning like 20% or like 90+% with full throttle. Car shouldn't move much with madly spinning wheels. But in LFS mad spinning wheels are equal to slightly to much spinning wheels, which is very good to accelerate.
IRL even a start with very shortly spinning wheels and then no spinning should be faster than a mad full throttle start without any back moving of the pedal.
This was stated before that the tire, depending on how it's made can behave many different ways, including having minimal grip loss after the tires start spinning.
I don't see this being a problem. I see this for an opportunity for the devs to add another tyre type into the game that might have a slightly higher slip angle but losses traction quicker than the one we have now?
I'd love to see someone show me an example of a tyre that will provide just as much forward force when spinning with a huge speed differential between it and the road... that sort of thing can occur on deformable surfaces like dirt / sand etc (I know certain rear tyres on my trailbike provide most forward drive at fairly large slip speeds) but I've never seen or experienced anything like that on tarmac. (edit: that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though!) Perhaps it would be physically possible to engineer such a tyre (even that I would find surprising) but even then LFS is not aided by being dramatically different to reality in it's tyre selections...
RIP2004: Do you really believe it would be possible to spin out the tires on a car like the FO8 IRL when doing a standing start and not have to correct the steering?
@RIP2004: The 2.87 time was reached everytime I did a full throttle start, sometimes with a bit more correcting, sometimes with almost none. I tried this atleast 7 times to be sure. The threshold starts were mostly in the 2.82-2.85 range, but only if I didn't mess it up. I do agree that the negative effect of spinning tyres isn't big enough, though.
@Woz: Ha, you'd probably even need more correcting. In a game you alteast have the chance to have a perfect car with perfectly equal tyre grip and a perfectly working differential on a perfectly even ground. It's an instable system and even the slightest nudge can destroy that and you've got alot more nudges IRL
@Woz: Ha, you'd probably even need more correcting. In a game you alteast have the chance to have a perfect car with perfectly equal tyre grip and a perfectly working differential on a perfectly even ground. It's an instable system and even the slightest nudge can destroy that and you've got alot more nudges IRL
No. And that isn't the point. But I thought corrections would cost some 0,0x seconds in the straight forward direction and therefore manipulate the comparison between brutally spinning wheels and more sort of controlled start.
@viper : See Blowtus. I don't know of any tyre that starts great if throttle is just floored. Watch quarter mile events. Except of some AWD cars with very very good clutches (which don't slip much) no one is just going full throttle at the limiter and get the foot of the clutch. All raise the revs to some point where there is a good torque value and the revs can't drop to much in low revs. And then when foot is off the clutch they balance the throttle and not just floor it.
And this should be the way it is in LFS too. I don't think that it is much harder to find the point in LFS than in RL. It is also possible to find the point slightly before locking the wheels in LFS and even locking single wheels. And if physics were correct you would immediately notice if tyres start to spin much, because you would accelerate less.
It's possible to find that Point in GTR and in rFactor. In fact it is possible to find that point in every ISI Sim, in GPL and even in a playstation 2 game called Gran Turismo 4. At least finding a point where acceleration is better than just flooring the throttle.
So I really hope for a tyre update. This "bug" is now here for ages since the beginning of LFS and the lesson "GTI-acceleration" in training is just ridiculous because of that problem. Every keyboarddriver and/or Need for Speed Underground driver will be rated best in that lesson, although the describing text is correct ...
Most important thing about it : starts are very very boring in LFS in comparison to nearly every other racing game including NFS. It's one half of the problem. The other half is the arcade style starting procedure with a signal blocking your car controlls ...
@android : Ok it may be this small good point before wheels that spin to much. So could be. Main thing is the area beyond that ...
Another thing are locked wheels and their braking way. Didn't test it since Patch U but I am pretty sure it is still a problem. They are far to short with fully locked wheels ... did you test that?
Why not just hit F9 and use the longitudinal G meter instead of making long acceleration runs? Just see how high you can get that off the start in first gear before the acceleration drops. Make sure to control the camber and temperature though as much as possible because that effects things quite a lot in LFS. It'd probably be best to use fully stiff suspension as well in order to transfer weight to the rears as quickly as possible and minimize the dynamic effects.
I.e., try launching at different rpm/wheelspin levels and see what the effects are. That would eliminate the shifting stuff and also minimize what happens due to steering as well. I've done this several times and IIRC have found I get the same acceleration from run to run down to 0.01g, so that's probably a more accurate way of measuring it.
I.e., try launching at different rpm/wheelspin levels and see what the effects are. That would eliminate the shifting stuff and also minimize what happens due to steering as well. I've done this several times and IIRC have found I get the same acceleration from run to run down to 0.01g, so that's probably a more accurate way of measuring it.
Agree. It's another good method but it will propably show the same. Acceleration doesn't drop significantly with massivly spinning wheels.
Nor should it 
I do agree that there might not be many if any tires out there that will produce the same results as the tires in LFS. I was merely saying that you shouldn't say the tyre physics are wrong when the tires don't have the exact curve that you want in a racecar, afterall it is possible (I guess) for this type of tire. I think in order to keep more people interested and enjoying the game there will have to be tires like this for people that just don't know how to drive and drive the car too hard into a corner( Including me =)). I would like to see a curve like the pre-patch tires had. I think this would work well with the new branding option they have for the tires.
More please
(Are you saying the same principles apply longitudinally as your previous information on lateral grip?)
The trouble with the sim environment is lack of feedback. As I stated earlier the feedback you get through your body is huge IRL. From a standing start for example you would feel the moment acceleration drops off or when the back wheels give out and you can feel the exact balance the car is in.
With LFS the first you would really know about is from visual queues, if you spotted the small change it would have, or through the wheel which you will only feel by the time the forces react through the steering column. This adds a level of "lag" to your responses to the car and means you are at a HUGE disadvantage in the sim environment compared to IRL. You control inputs can't be as subtle as IRL because you have to interpret somee of the information from just visual queues and FF feeling.
Never underestimate what effect motion has on your perception. Everything about the experience changes and becomes more real. I say this with the first 8 years of my working life on flight simulators for Airlines and the Military. Or as we saw them on night shift, £10,000,000.00 toys
It might be an idea to see if the people that make the 301 platform will run some tests. They have the motion queues to help them keep the car on the edge and are best placed for the "perfect start". Then we can see the real difference between the two.
you don't need to do a 'perfect start' in reality to get the benefit from a non wheelspin start. you can watch the start of any race, those that create plumes of smoke don't get off the line well.
How do you know that? Have you been racing or did you just saw that on tv?
never raced door to door, but I've had my car on track etc. Shouldn't matter, like I said it's very easy to see on tv. I should have been clearer though, i didn't mean no wheelspin, some is inevitable, just excessive amounts.
@jtw : It should! see answer to "askoff"
@viper : Live for Speed isn't meant as easy to drive arcade game. It is meant as simulation as close to reality as possible.
You won't find a single tyre in the whole world mounted on a street car or usual race car, which doesn't drop off at acceleration if spinned massivly. Perhabs there are some special tyres for drag racing, which isn't really a race series LFS really aims for.
For people which have difficulties with controlled starts, there could be a traction control for every car in the game.
@Woz
That's perfectly right. I always criticize the lag of feedback and I bet you won't even find a feedback like IRL for the next 10 years.
But as I said it is possible to feel that difference in Gran Turismo 4 or all the ISI games without really more feedback than LFS.
GT4 even has got less feedback ...
You can control it just by looking at the revs. I don't say that you will find the perfect point exactly always. But you should be able to find a much better point than full throttle all the time
@askoff :
There are many ways to look at it.
1. Physics ... its no question that a tyre with a small difference between tarmac and tyre rotation will be able to transfer more force. Rubber needs some difference. No question about that. But to much difference is definitly counterproductive ...
2. Races on TV. As said above nobody pulls of with full throttle. If it would be possible to design tyres like in LFS they would have done that in formula 1 and there would be no need for a launch control or careful starting.
Ever seen any kind of race on TV? There are always much more differences than in a start in LFS between experienced people.
3. 1/4 mile events IRL. Ask them. Watch them. No one will pull off with full throttle, because hard spinning wheels are bad.
4. Ask a real racing driver. Watch for example "Fifth gear". In the race between BMW M3 and Audi RS4 they did a drag race and described the difficulty. Jason Plato and Tiff Needle talked about it.
In the BMW M3 you can't go full throttle, because the tyres will spin. And thats bad!
In the Audi RS4 traction is no real problem, but you can't go full throttle also, because the clutch starts to slip then.
And in the real race Jason Plato in the M3 had to much throttle. He shouted angrily "baaah, wheelspin." and you could really see a huge difference. BMW M3 started pretty bad in comparison to the runs before that ...
5. Try it for real. I did it in my car. My tyres will be changed next week and I just wanted to test out how full throttle would be. More to see just one time, if the tyres smoke. And they do
But you'll also notice that it is very slow with much wheel spin. At least in car with enough power (mine has 150 bhp on FWD)
Its cheaper to test it on a wet road, although it is slightly different. You will move very very very slow with full throttle
EDIT : btw. "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!"
@viper : Live for Speed isn't meant as easy to drive arcade game. It is meant as simulation as close to reality as possible.
You won't find a single tyre in the whole world mounted on a street car or usual race car, which doesn't drop off at acceleration if spinned massivly. Perhabs there are some special tyres for drag racing, which isn't really a race series LFS really aims for.
For people which have difficulties with controlled starts, there could be a traction control for every car in the game.
@Woz
That's perfectly right. I always criticize the lag of feedback and I bet you won't even find a feedback like IRL for the next 10 years.
But as I said it is possible to feel that difference in Gran Turismo 4 or all the ISI games without really more feedback than LFS.
GT4 even has got less feedback ...
You can control it just by looking at the revs. I don't say that you will find the perfect point exactly always. But you should be able to find a much better point than full throttle all the time
@askoff :
There are many ways to look at it.
1. Physics ... its no question that a tyre with a small difference between tarmac and tyre rotation will be able to transfer more force. Rubber needs some difference. No question about that. But to much difference is definitly counterproductive ...
2. Races on TV. As said above nobody pulls of with full throttle. If it would be possible to design tyres like in LFS they would have done that in formula 1 and there would be no need for a launch control or careful starting.
Ever seen any kind of race on TV? There are always much more differences than in a start in LFS between experienced people.
3. 1/4 mile events IRL. Ask them. Watch them. No one will pull off with full throttle, because hard spinning wheels are bad.
4. Ask a real racing driver. Watch for example "Fifth gear". In the race between BMW M3 and Audi RS4 they did a drag race and described the difficulty. Jason Plato and Tiff Needle talked about it.
In the BMW M3 you can't go full throttle, because the tyres will spin. And thats bad!
In the Audi RS4 traction is no real problem, but you can't go full throttle also, because the clutch starts to slip then.
And in the real race Jason Plato in the M3 had to much throttle. He shouted angrily "baaah, wheelspin." and you could really see a huge difference. BMW M3 started pretty bad in comparison to the runs before that ...
5. Try it for real. I did it in my car. My tyres will be changed next week and I just wanted to test out how full throttle would be. More to see just one time, if the tyres smoke. And they do
But you'll also notice that it is very slow with much wheel spin. At least in car with enough power (mine has 150 bhp on FWD)
Its cheaper to test it on a wet road, although it is slightly different. You will move very very very slow with full throttle
EDIT : btw. "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!"
Well, not really, you'd never really get to that point. Even when it's off, Audi's ESP system is still engaged, it just kicks in later than when it's on.
I have no problem going full throttle on launches in the S, but it's still obvious when the ESP kicks in.
In the older turbo based B5 S4s, you had to slip the clutch on start to make it worth your while.
TTTTTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR KLOSE!!!
Ok, perhabs Tiff Needle was wrong there But its still slower then ...
EDIT : It's Tiff Needell ... sorry
But its still slower then ...EDIT : It's Tiff Needell ... sorry
Such an awesome thread and not a peep from the devs. Irritating.
We have the tech now, its just that it costs
The 301 is $30000+ US but looking at what they have should give you a far greater feel for the car. The 301 can pull up to 7G for a fraction of a second if it goes between motion extremes as full speed. This is limited though for safety. Its is not the only motion platform out there as well, there are even 6 DOF platforms if you have the money.ISI sims are a different case. They are probably easier because their engine has flaws which might highlight the difference more and GT4 is just not a sim should not be included in this as a benchmark. GT4 is more an arcade game with a nod to real physics.
That said, even with my Mini I know if I spin the wheels as its slower off the spot.
Well what matters is that you don't really need a lot of feedback to judge how hard your tyres are spinning. Just watch the revs and how they change in comparison to your car speed.
If revs stay at the same place near the limiter, while car changes speed, its obvious they are spinning a lot. If revs move up like the speed of your car there is not much spinning ...
Additional you will hear the sound and you will see the tyres depending on your view.
GT4 is different and much more easy to drive. There isn't the same challenge of driving and they had to do it because of the limitation of a console and pad steering for most people.
But it's not really bad as simulation of real cars based on data. They collected a LOT data of real cars and real tracks and I bet that their tyre behaviour itself regarding grip in some way isn't really worse than the one of LFS.
At least if you choose the correct type of tyre and not drive the premium semi-slicks which are mounted as standard on road cars ...
If revs stay at the same place near the limiter, while car changes speed, its obvious they are spinning a lot. If revs move up like the speed of your car there is not much spinning ...
Additional you will hear the sound and you will see the tyres depending on your view.
GT4 is different and much more easy to drive. There isn't the same challenge of driving and they had to do it because of the limitation of a console and pad steering for most people.
But it's not really bad as simulation of real cars based on data. They collected a LOT data of real cars and real tracks and I bet that their tyre behaviour itself regarding grip in some way isn't really worse than the one of LFS.
At least if you choose the correct type of tyre and not drive the premium semi-slicks which are mounted as standard on road cars ...Key word here is "significant." Is there a drop? Yes, there usually is, at least in the data I've seen.
Here are a couple of examples of real tires:
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com/files/longslip.JPG
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com/files/longslip2.JPG
These are old street tires rather than racing tires, but at least it's something concrete to put numbers too. The tests were done on a trailer on concrete, although the results on asphalt look pretty similar. The curve we're interested in here is the top one circled in red which shows longitudinal force vs. slip ratio with no slip angle. (The other lines are showing lateral and longitudinal force at varying slip angles as a function of slip ratio. That's the "combined force" stuff that needs to be right and was goofy in LFS before the latest patch.)
Opening up these in Paint and counting pixels it can be seen that the first curve drops 9.5% from the peak out to 0.8 slip ratio, which is BIG slip. These tests were done at 20 mph, so you're spinning the wheels up to the equivalent of 36 mph at the far right of the graph. The second test only shows a 3% drop.
Is massive wheelspin going to reduce acceleration? Yes, it could depending on the tire, but generally it's not a whole lot or some massive drop off like most people seem to think where the acceleration dumps down to 60% of what you'd otherwise get or anything like that.
Now, again, the key word here is "significant" drop off. Keep in mind that all tire data you see like this has been processed somehow. It's not the actual raw data read from the machine during the test. The real data points are very noisy in reality. I.e., the forces jump up and down quite a bit instead of just following along those curves perfectly. If the noise is a 10% up/down variation from one moment to the next, then for all practical purposes there are instants in time where at 0.8 slip ratio you could be getting more grip than at some instants of time at the peak. So on that one curve where you see a 3% drop off, once you're on the actual track you could very well see very little difference in acceleration at all.
There are other tires that drop off more than this, and others that drop off less and are essentially flat (until you start melting the rubber of course, that will change things). I've got one here that rises to a peak, then drops off maybe 1-2%, then rises again to the same level as the peak at 0.8 slip ratio. So anything can happen.
Unfortunately I don't have any data like this on a modern racing tire. I've been told though that there are indeed tires that really don't have any significant drop off at all. Drag slicks could be a major departure from these curves though and in all likelihood are, but I won't go into the reasons for that here.
On wet pavement nearly all tires drop off much more than this, so if you're testing with your poopometer in your own car, make sure to do it in the dry.
Something else interesting is that any data I've seen on big truck tires all have very steep drop offs after the peak, probably even more so in general than regular car tires do in the wet. And again, this is a design issue in tires. You can do more or less what you want. It depends what you're trying to design the tire to do and where you'll allow it to sort of, well, not work so well that separates one tire from the next.
Here are a couple of examples of real tires:
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com/files/longslip.JPG
http://www.PerformanceSimulations.com/files/longslip2.JPG
These are old street tires rather than racing tires, but at least it's something concrete to put numbers too. The tests were done on a trailer on concrete, although the results on asphalt look pretty similar. The curve we're interested in here is the top one circled in red which shows longitudinal force vs. slip ratio with no slip angle. (The other lines are showing lateral and longitudinal force at varying slip angles as a function of slip ratio. That's the "combined force" stuff that needs to be right and was goofy in LFS before the latest patch.)
Opening up these in Paint and counting pixels it can be seen that the first curve drops 9.5% from the peak out to 0.8 slip ratio, which is BIG slip. These tests were done at 20 mph, so you're spinning the wheels up to the equivalent of 36 mph at the far right of the graph. The second test only shows a 3% drop.
Is massive wheelspin going to reduce acceleration? Yes, it could depending on the tire, but generally it's not a whole lot or some massive drop off like most people seem to think where the acceleration dumps down to 60% of what you'd otherwise get or anything like that.
Now, again, the key word here is "significant" drop off. Keep in mind that all tire data you see like this has been processed somehow. It's not the actual raw data read from the machine during the test. The real data points are very noisy in reality. I.e., the forces jump up and down quite a bit instead of just following along those curves perfectly. If the noise is a 10% up/down variation from one moment to the next, then for all practical purposes there are instants in time where at 0.8 slip ratio you could be getting more grip than at some instants of time at the peak. So on that one curve where you see a 3% drop off, once you're on the actual track you could very well see very little difference in acceleration at all.
There are other tires that drop off more than this, and others that drop off less and are essentially flat (until you start melting the rubber of course, that will change things). I've got one here that rises to a peak, then drops off maybe 1-2%, then rises again to the same level as the peak at 0.8 slip ratio. So anything can happen.
Unfortunately I don't have any data like this on a modern racing tire. I've been told though that there are indeed tires that really don't have any significant drop off at all. Drag slicks could be a major departure from these curves though and in all likelihood are, but I won't go into the reasons for that here.
On wet pavement nearly all tires drop off much more than this, so if you're testing with your poopometer in your own car, make sure to do it in the dry.
Something else interesting is that any data I've seen on big truck tires all have very steep drop offs after the peak, probably even more so in general than regular car tires do in the wet. And again, this is a design issue in tires. You can do more or less what you want. It depends what you're trying to design the tire to do and where you'll allow it to sort of, well, not work so well that separates one tire from the next.
I wholeheartedly agree and this is an arguement that has been brought up since the beginning, and is brought up in every sim forum in town.
A sim really needs to advance through some stages of realism before this becomes a really valid argument. Before the latest patch I really felt the combined force stuff was way, way out of whack. Didn't want to criticize it too much or too harshly though because I'm a pretty nice guy and wouldn't appreciate that from another dev in my forum either, but now that it's been fixed up a great deal I can say it.
Prior to the combined stuff being drastically improved I argued against the common view Woz is stating here because in my opinion LFS had not advanced to the point yet where this point matters a whole lot. In other threads I'd talked about how I'd fixed up the combined stuff in my sim and it was worlds different and much easier to drive than LFS was. That was very true, and a common response was that I didn't have bumps in the road and that sort of thing. Well... Now that you have that area fixed up in LFS you can see how much easier it is. Here's a case where realistic actually = easier
Now that the tires have been improved so much LFS is really at the point where the lack of physical feedback imho is a valid argument. There are still a couple of little things I'd critique, but so far nobody has noticed or mentioned them so I'll remain mum
LFS right now in several areas has the best tire model and realistic output data of any sim out there, and in some other areas there are shortcomings, but the strengths more than make up for that. These other areas aren't too tough to work out though and I'm sure we'll see it eventually.
Thanks JTW62074 for those, and by what has been said the way the tyres in LFS act could be real life tyres, just depends on how the tyre is made.
RIP2004 I agree totally that LFS shouldn't be an arcade game, it isn't with the tires that we have now. What I am saying is that if you made a tyre more difficult to drive less people will be willing to drive because they do not play every single day to get a good feel on how the tyres react, these casual racers will drift to other games that gives them what they feel a decent reward for their efforts, not last place every time with the car stuffed into the wall. This does not mean creating an arcade feeling, it feel like an arcade game now? Not to me.
Edit: I donno if anyone has said this but maximum traction is when the tyres are on a 3-8% slip, depending on the type of tyre, at least thats what the pro racers told me when I did my racing experience.
RIP2004 I agree totally that LFS shouldn't be an arcade game, it isn't with the tires that we have now. What I am saying is that if you made a tyre more difficult to drive less people will be willing to drive because they do not play every single day to get a good feel on how the tyres react, these casual racers will drift to other games that gives them what they feel a decent reward for their efforts, not last place every time with the car stuffed into the wall. This does not mean creating an arcade feeling, it feel like an arcade game now? Not to me.
Edit: I donno if anyone has said this but maximum traction is when the tyres are on a 3-8% slip, depending on the type of tyre, at least thats what the pro racers told me when I did my racing experience.
Patch U physics: Are we there yet?
(133 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG