The online racing simulator
Season 2010: Optional Entry Fees Briefing (Please Read Thread For Details)
Hello all:

So, I figured I'd explain the NDR Entry Fees system as it relates to GTAL. It's a recent addition we have made, and did it as OPTIONAL insofar as we'll ask (politely) for the contribution, but we will not turn down participation at all to anyone who does not contribute. But, we have selected "pricing" that seems to be, on the whole, inexpensive to an individual, but overall can be large the more participate.

Now, I could bore you with making you look at the sporting code Supplemental Doc that pertains to this, but I'll summarize what you need to know here.

First of all, we WILL NOT make public who has paid and who hasn't. This is key, we value privacy in this.

Second, all fees collected will first go to pay for services needed to support us and our events. Then, a small portion of what is left will go to reimburse those in NDR who have spent own money to do what we've purchased so far. A larger portion of what's left will be set aside into a coffer for a prize fund. The current prediction is that it will be about a year before we'd dip into this, or 6 months at best. But, the more who participate, the sooner we can implement this. Prizes would not be in the hundreds of GBP or EUR (at least not yet - maybe someday), but still a decent dent in, say, the cost of a LFS Server. Prizes would be paid out on season end to whoever we can offer it to. There will be a "Purse" for a series and the lion's share will go to the champion. we will divide the rest in a logical way to let as many people get a good share of the purse.

Now, the GTAL details.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS NOT A COMPULSORY FEE!

There are two "stages" for GTAL. One is application-based, the other is race-based.

The Application-based is a one-time for the season value. A Team application in and of itself is £3. Then, on top of that, the FIRST SIX drivers applied for are counted at £2 each. 7th and 8th and 9th etc are £0 for this purpose. So the maximum an application will "cost" a team is £15.

On the Round-by-Round basis, there is a "fee" of £1 per racer, for the first two. 3rd, 4th, etc are £0. This is a maximum of £2 per race, £14 per season.

Overall, a team would be contributing £29 for the entire season, a season that takes the whole of 6 or 7 months. On a round by round basis, that is no more than a fiver per round. Considering the team-based nature of the series, we do not consider that an undue difficulty, and that is why we chose the level we did.

Some figures to illustrate the "big impact" side of it:

If all 28 regular teams paid the full £29, that would be a total of £812 into NDR. Our projected expenses for the next 12 months (Consider our Fiscal Year from 1 Nov to 31 October for this) are nearing £300. That leaves the £500 to do two things: reimburse previous personal money spent by our members (about £275 so far) and the rest for a prize fund. We would tend to put a higher priority on a prize fund because we feel that that would be a higher benefit to those who participate in our events to offer some sort of prizes quickly.

Now, not all teams would be paying £29, some would be, say, £20 based on thier rosters, but anything helps, and this is why we encourage participation.

It is of course, not compulsory that you do, but if you even have the means as a team to pay anything, we would sincerely appreciate it.

Please feel free to post comments or questions here. If you are interested in finding out how we will be collecting these OR offering to make the contribution, please contact me via PM here on the forums, or send an email to [email protected]

Regards
Jonathan Palmer and the rest of New Dimension Racing
Probably this entry fee, let players see another side of Live For Speed, that nobody cant win in the first lap. If this idea come true, i would lovely pay those money for my team, becouse i know how much cost to make a tournament or something like that, with your own money. Deko made great opportunity to make GTAL league more competetive as its now.
Hmm, I wonder who will pay. I won't pay, sorry...I payed for my license to play this game, but not for series, no, no. + I wouldn't pay it mostly because you can't promise that everything will go well, during the races. What if I pay the money, I drive well, but someone always crashes me and it's their fault, but all they get is penalty. Basically I would pay money to get crashed. That was just an example, btw. + I definitely don't have money to waste during crisis, for a game. Thank god I bought the license last year.

Nothing against your idea, and I know it does cost a lot to get a server, broadcasting etc. So don't take it too personal.

Good luck with your idea though!
Finally, prize and quality racing! :banana:
Quote from andRo. :Hmm, I wonder who will pay. I won't pay, sorry...I payed for my license to play this game, but not for series, no, no. + I wouldn't pay it mostly because you can't promise that everything will go well, during the races. What if I pay the money, I drive well, but someone always crashes me and it's their fault, but all they get is penalty. Basically I would pay money to get crashed. That was just an example, btw. + I definitely don't have money to waste during crisis, for a game. Thank god I bought the license last year.

Nothing against your idea, and I know it does cost a lot to get a server, broadcasting etc. So don't take it too personal.

Good luck with your idea though!

I think it`s not that much 5Lats or 8 euros for the whole session, but yea you would rather spend on candy`s and other shit
+ if people start paying money they 100% start think about everything much more serious.
Nothing will resist you from the crashes. Crashes are part of the game and don't think that u gonna carry away from it by paying any fee to race.
Quote from [no]Kill :
Second, just a warning regarding price money. It is a very bad idea to have a personally price in a team competition, such as GTAL. That will totally ruin the team spirit.

True words. It also goes against the term 'amateur league'.
Quote from efexas16 :I think it`s not that much 5Lats or 8 euros for the whole session, but yea you would rather spend on candy`s and other shit
+ if people start paying money they 100% start think about everything much more serious.

Well, it said 14 pounds/season, which means ~ 11 Lats, but I guess math isn't your closest subject. Well maybe if you parents are rich, its not much for you.
+ believe me, I don't spend money on candies, I have much more important stuff where to put the money. But I think I would still rather use it for food than for a game.
#9 - J@tko
Quote from andRo. :Basically I would pay money to get crashed.

LOL - that's kinda not the plan really
Deko,

I see were youre coming from. I can see why you do this. However in the end of the day the money will decide which teams are in and which are out. If you have a good contributer he will always gets the favor over another team who isnt paying your fee. I know now at this point youll say no it wont happen but there comes a time when you will. Even if you guys dont say it, the team that contributes constantly will start asking questions if they have been rejected.

Secondly you said something about what you already spent on NDR to get to this stage were you are now. And that rather would get some prices then get the money back to the guys who helped out paying some bills or whatever. This looks like you want your investment back and you want others to pay for it. Getting things up and runnig costs money unfortantly. If you and NDR wanna do that kinda stuff you know you gotta pay. But asking your customers to get the funds back isnt really nice. Again the way you wrote it down looks like I descriped above, that doesnt mean it is the way Deko ment it.

Now I have no issue paying anything but since GTAL is a team thing it should be dicussed within the team offcourse. Consedering how currently goes in economie I doubt many teams will pay to support your cause. Not saying I dont like it but I would rather seen it as a mandatory fee for participating the GTAL. This way teams know that every team in it has payed their fee. Instead of getting teams who get in without a fee.

Just mine 2 cents on the matter.
Quote from andRo. : I wouldn't pay it mostly because you can't promise that everything will go well, during the races. What if I pay the money, I drive well, but someone always crashes me and it's their fault, but all they get is penalty. Basically I would pay money to get crashed.

So you would pay if you were promised you would win all the time



1) It would cost you a lot more than 14gbp
2) You know the billing details are in OP

I do not care if you pay or not. I do not care wheather there is enough money to spend on prizes. The point is not to make people pay for all possible costs. The point is, however, we have put a lot of money and work in it, but at the current rate we'd be out of pocket quite soon. As stupid as it may sound we do actually like and take pride of the job we do and will continue doing it regardless of some Latvian brat pays or not. However we will eventually be forced to drop the quality of services you've untill now received for free.

You've seen the package at it's best. You get to race with people, you even get a practice server (well, sometimes ) for practising. There's race control you can be in contact with throughout the race. You can get voicecomms on our vent server. You can watch the race afterwards with commentary and burn the broadcast on a DVD and show it to your grandpa. In the beginning, not so long ago, there were none of these. Still there were races. Nowdays people take all this for granted, and would only complain if something was to be taken away. The idea in the fee comes closer to contributing in preserving the current standard of services everyone is used to, rather than paying for nothing.
Why not do an easier PayPall donation simply and purely for the maintaince, sever, and other costs ? I believe you can set it so it collects for example €500, once that donation amount is achieved the donating button goes offline. No ?

Though, I do most say, some prize money gets the news and makes leagues so called pro. (ESL eg.) Though for the GTAL this would be bad, but for the IGTC or the 500 KY1 laps race this is a good motivator and very nice.

My quick cents, got to rush now. I'll see what I can chip in though as individual.
Quote from hyntty :I do not care if you pay or not. I do not care wheather there is enough money to spend on prizes. The point is not to make people pay for all possible costs. The point is, however, we have put a lot of money and work in it, but at the current rate we'd be out of pocket quite soon. As stupid as it may sound we do actually like and take pride of the job we do and will continue doing it regardless of some Latvian brat pays or not. However we will eventually be forced to drop the quality of services you've untill now received for free.

Exactly. We're not charging because we want money. We're charging because we want our events to be better than they currently are

EDIT: To be brutally honest, any donation is welcome!
Quote from GianniC :Why not do an easier PayPall donation simply and purely for the maintaince, sever, and other costs ?

Our (old(er)) website has one. Maybe the new überportal will have one too
Reading through this thread briefly and get a little scared. I agree fully with Gianni here.
The pricemoney don't fit into the GTAL concept. Amateurs are for those who aren't experienced or fast. Pricemoney ruin the fun in this.

You run other leagues though where this concept fits in a lot better.
Let the drivers and teams donate what they can/want to donate. I'm sure there will be a lot of ppl actually do that.
Wait where did d say we were giving out prizes for GTAL?
Well, what would really be improved in this league? If everything is good enough already, what is there to improve? Because 14EUR is quite a lot for a season, and with that money, many things should be improved. But there isn't really anything to improve. Well, if you need help paying for the server, broadcasts etc., then it's different, but you said you will improve the quality.

BTW, I don't know, but I also don't think you will earn anything if it's not necessary to pay. People don't want to pay, if they can have all that for free. That's kind of obvious...and if it would be compulsory, you probably wouldn't have so many drivers then, so yeah.

And no, lol, I don't want to win every race if I pay the money, it was meant that you can't promise that the race quality will improve. And if I get pissed every race only because I get crashed by others by accident etc., then I don't enjoy racing it. I hope you understand, what I mean. It's hard to explain...

Quote :...some Latvian brat...

Ha, don't get pissed. I was only telling my opinion, but I also told you good luck. And I'm allowed to tell my opinion, even if its something you don't want to hear, but I don't think I wasn't sounding rude. Well, use that money to improve your attitude. Because this is bad attitude if you want to get some money or improve the quality of the league.

And I'm not criticizing your work. I know it's not easy to get all stuff work out perfectly. I always appreciate that someone is doing something to let others have fun.

Anyway, good luck, have fun, don't take it too personal, guys!
In your first sentence ... "So, I figured I'd explain the NDR Entry Fees system as it relates to GTAL."
And later ... "We would tend to put a higher priority on a prize fund because we feel that that would be a higher benefit to those who participate in our events to offer some sort of prizes quickly."

Btw Hyntty sets the goal by saying "Latvian brat" who don't going to pay. Not a very nice way to aproatch this "NOT mandatory" fee.

You guys in NDR are doing a great job with all your leagues, please guide me to the PayPal button!
andRo., dont worry! Dont get scared of Timo, he just... is that way
the only problem i have with charity-cases such as this, is how do we know that the funds are being spent appropriately? if i gave you $50, what would stop you from spending it on, say... beer?

public accountability is key in matters such as this, even if you don't list the contributors.
Quote from bunder9999 :the only problem i have with charity-cases such as this, is how do we know that the funds are being spent appropriately? if i gave you $50, what would stop you from spending it on, say... beer?

Well I don't think d actually drinks, so you're safe on that count

In truth, you just have to trust us. After all, you can see how many servers [LFS + vent] we have, the broadcasts e.t.c, so you can actually see the money in action, if you will.
Quote from J@tko :Well I don't think d actually drinks, so you're safe on that count

In truth, you just have to trust us. After all, you can see how many servers [LFS + vent] we have, the broadcasts e.t.c, so you can actually see the money in action, if you will.

Yes, Multibc broadcasts of events, the ventrilo server, the server we have (which we are currently working on upping to 3) all cost ALOT of money per year to run, and the money will NOT in any way go towards us personally. I would be fairly angry if the money collected by us would go anywhere but the event management.

@ neils1: I don't want my money back, and we do NOT want the money to reline our own pockets! I find it quite offensive that you would even think we would think of doing such a thing to be honest with you mate. You must know us better than this by now.
Quote from andRo. :What if I pay the money, I drive well, but someone always crashes me and it's their fault, but all they get is penalty. Basically I would pay money to get crashed.

There are drivers' fees in F1 and they had the deal with the likes of Piquet Jr.
Personally I'm not here for a prize but here to have fun. A prize for me would be a nice skin xD.
First:

We will NEVER use money as a factor as who gets in for as long as we keep entry fees as optional. The only time that would happen is if we would ever do compulsory fees, which if it would happen, is quite a long way away. Any team or person who contributes and then complains to us about rejection will be given a valid reason as to why their application was rejected. Such things as "Inability to follow procedures" or "Reckless driving" or similar reasons would be placed here. There is also a reason why we won't officially ask for the fees until after applications are completed, to attempt to prevent such things like this. To suggest that we would introduce bias based on money I consider an affront to our integrity and character as a team. We want to see full grids of the best RACERS, not the best wallets. To suggest anything else is likely to be considered by us as an attack against us.

Your second point: The "repayment" of past moneys spent is the lowest priority, and in an internal team estimate, it wouldn't even start to "matter" in relative terms for at least about 24 months, and not till a sufficient amount of future things have been taken care of. Our goal with what we gather from these "entry fees" - or as some have put it, a "Structured Donations" system - is to put it towards the future: Costs of operation, and a fund for prizes or other services as needed. "Repayment" of money spent is only tertiary to Operations and Benefits to racers.

We did not make these compulsory for a reason. We understand that some cannot afford to pay, or simply do not wish to, and we purely respect it. We appreciate all who do contribute. A Donate facility will be placed on the new website overnight tonight, which may be used anytime. The reasoning behind the structured Entry Fees system is to attempt to give some sort of "value" to each series based on time, and effort used to run every series. It would make sense that GTAL would be one of the highest with the time for running it, and the resources needed additionally, such as the tracker. Our other series, like LLWS and MiniFBM aren't as much because they don't generally take much and are generally less.

I will be tracking any monies received strictly, and will share the information with anyone who requests it at anytime, as well as publishing in and out etc every "quarter".

As a team and these fees, we're not in it to make profit. We're in it to sustain ourselves with as many means as possible. If I wanted to make profit from LFS, I'd charge for my commentary work, or making videos. But I don't see any willingness to take up on that or any potential for that at this time, so I'm not.

More comments and questions are of course always welcome, just please refrain from calling people "brats" or any other sorts of things. If you can't offer the money or do not wish to, that's fair play to you. We won't hurt you or ban you. We're just exercising more potential options for supporting ourselves to keep things running smoothly.

Regards,
Jonathan



Quote from niels1 :Deko,

I see were youre coming from. I can see why you do this. However in the end of the day the money will decide which teams are in and which are out. If you have a good contributer he will always gets the favor over another team who isnt paying your fee. I know now at this point youll say no it wont happen but there comes a time when you will. Even if you guys dont say it, the team that contributes constantly will start asking questions if they have been rejected.

Secondly you said something about what you already spent on NDR to get to this stage were you are now. And that rather would get some prices then get the money back to the guys who helped out paying some bills or whatever. This looks like you want your investment back and you want others to pay for it. Getting things up and runnig costs money unfortantly. If you and NDR wanna do that kinda stuff you know you gotta pay. But asking your customers to get the funds back isnt really nice. Again the way you wrote it down looks like I descriped above, that doesnt mean it is the way Deko ment it.

Now I have no issue paying anything but since GTAL is a team thing it should be dicussed within the team offcourse. Consedering how currently goes in economie I doubt many teams will pay to support your cause. Not saying I dont like it but I would rather seen it as a mandatory fee for participating the GTAL. This way teams know that every team in it has payed their fee. Instead of getting teams who get in without a fee.

Just mine 2 cents on the matter.

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