That sounds great Becky! I hope you find the motivation and time to finish that project, because it really seems interesting!

A completely off topic, but somewhat linked question :

Can two insim's be runned at same server? Let's say if a server use Airo / Aero (or what that name is), would it somewhat be possible to combine those two insims? The one for point and statestics, while the other would allow all the other ultilities like messaged and chat etc?

Yes, LFS servers (and clients) can handle multiple INSIM connections these days (if it did not I would just code a gateway like I did with the old LFS Companion).

The concept of Blue2 is to be complimentary, by being fully configurable in all but command access ( The $ symbol ) it would co-inhabit with all other systems and with each feature being configurable there should not be any compatibility or conflict issues.

Superb, thumbs up for that

Keep us updated on the progress. Maybe make a topic for that matter, a topic you can update every now and then when there is an update.
You should not feel that you have to update that topic, but update it when there is something worth mention.

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

I still miss BnJ

agreed

Quote from Dajmin :

My only problem with the CTRA system was that it was a major grind for us middle-pack finishers. I was forced to level up on cars I didn't really like and I don't think I ever actually qualified for the second server. I don't mind having to prove I'm not a wrecker, but a bit more of a reward for racing cleanly would've been nice.

The racing on the LR servers is very similar to the CTRA system, but it does seem to have some extra features that reward individual performance as well as that of the group (if what I've been told is true). So you might get loads more points for actually winning, but you're also rewarded for beating your previous bests.

It also didn't help that all the high level liscense guys were constantly on CTRA 1 raping all the people who were there to level up...

If we do have a return of a CTRA like system, this is a copy of the PM I sent to LR Race Center (who didn't respond), with my thoughts on how the points system could be bettered:

Quote :

This is intended as constructive cristism for the points system used on your servers. I know you wanted to replace CTRA with your servers, and to an extent you have done. But I was never a fan of the CTRA points system either. The main problem I have with it is how it awards racers who drive the most races, regardless of how good they are. Basically as it is now, you need around 60(?) wins just to drive the TBO cars and get to advanced level. This is simply rediculous IMO.

A lot of people claimed when iRacing announced its "FIRST" licensing system that they were copying CTRA, which is absurd. In iRacing it's possible to complete only 60 races and still be ranked the 4th best rated driver (Greger Huttu) out of 10,000 + racers. This is simply not possible in any system similar to CTRA.

It works for several reasons:
- You can score relatively vast amounts points for a race win or above midpack
- You can LOSE just as many points for low finishes
- You score more or less points based on the average ranking of drivers in your race

What this means is it's possible to climb the ladder very quickly, but at the same time, it's possible to fall back down if you aren't a good enough driver.

In a CTRA like system, you can never lose points by finishing badly in a race, so it's a licensing system whereby how good a driver you are actually means shit. It's about completing as many races as you can.

This results in racing where 90% of anyone racing on your servers can only drive the slowest cars, and 9% of the ones who can drive the faster ones don't as it makes for boring racing. The remaining 1% who do drive a faster car in a full grid of XFG's end up winning race after race on their own while driving 5 seconds off the WR.

iRacing have got it right, it would be good to see something similar in LFS.

This Blue 2 sound good and if it would have scoring system like dave posted this would be better than CRTA or any other server.


P.s do i understand corectly that this blue 2 system will work similar to P2P?

^^^^^What he said^^^^^ DaveWS I mean.

Quote from oldnavy :

P.s do i understand corectly that this blue 2 system will work similar to P2P?

no, p2p is a slightly different framework. Blue 2 is a neural network with a 'many to many to many to many' framework. Which if you ask me is just too many ...

Bad jokes aside, there are comparisons to p2p but the differences make it a poor example to use. Instead think of it as a cluster of stars (SQL servers) sat next to another cluster of stars (blue 2 nodes) sat next to another cluster of stars (lfs servers) sat next to another cluster of stars (end users).

Direct connections are then possible between any star in a cluster to any star in an adjacent cluster.

On another spiral arm is a web server (theoretically also a cluster although in practice just one) which connects to the SQL server and provides web functionality. Next to this is a cluster of 3rd party web servers that communicate to it via API's, such as the master server, twitter server, team web sites, and other related LFS servers, also in this cluster would be a chat relaying server to connect IMs between another cluster of IM client users and the SQL staging server.

Any point a cluster can appear or dissappear and another node within the cluster will replace it and do it's work. In practice what this meens is if Blue 2 for whatever reason lost connection to the server you are on, another node would pickup and ressume it's work - in practice, this would occur within 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Whether any session state data is lost in a crash is more complex, sadly not everything can persist between nodes.

I'm sure some oldies remember the STCC system as is was called prior to the CTRA X system. The scoring in the two was very different. STCC gave more points to mid-pack finishers than CTRA did. In the CTRA system, like Race Center, you had to finish pretty high up to get any kind of points.

I liked the scoring of the STCC system better, since I'm almost always mid-pack and I'm pretty clean, and I almost always finish. I like racing on Race Center, but I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to drive a TBO there. In the end, it's up to the people who run the server what kind of points system they want to use.

Quote from Danke :

I'm sure some oldies remember the STCC system as is was called prior to the CTRA X system. The scoring in the two was very different. STCC gave more points to mid-pack finishers than CTRA did. In the CTRA system, like Race Center, you had to finish pretty high up to get any kind of points.

The initial algorythm was exactly the same (although there where tweeks and changes over time, like the introduction of the clean racing bonus where the number of yellows you accrued could earn you more points than being fast). The biggest difference was that in patch X more people could race, and that in X system you could more clearly see what points everyone was earning.

Hmm, I swear the STCC system had a fairly sizable "finishing bonus" that applied no matter where you placed. It was there in CTRA too but it was much smaller relative to the license levels. Or it could be that my old brain is getting rusty.

What DaveWS said touches upon something i'd been thinking myself. The original purpose of having points was a filter mechanism for the higher access server. It's my view that the whole of LFS can support two 'pro' servers concurrently - 1 tin top and 1 single seater, any more than that and the saturation of the player base keeps them empty. With no other model to go on I took elements of RPG like MMO's to provide an addictive element - this was no accident, it was by design - but you must also remember the whole concept was new at the time, so looking back we can now come up with a better approach.

Nowadays we need something more than that to sustain a good quality of racing and to open the servers up to more racers, i've spoken to many sim racers since the original system was devised at the various meets, and read many forum posts, soaking in views, and I do have an alternative system in theory, if not in specific design principle.

I wanted to provide more than one meens to gain access to the pro servers, which would change operator weekly to distribute stewarding, access to the pro servers would require earning a number of awards / badges, either whilst in the pro server (for those already qualified) or on any other server.

With Blue 2 in theory accessing all LFS servers thus you could earn the badges anywhere.

The badges themselves could also then be used to drive support to underused cars, one week one badge might be "Win a race with 10 or more starters in an LX4" and another being "Complete a 10 lap race with 100% clean laps (no yellows) in an FXO". The badges would generate randomly based upon current server selections and have different values - once enough badges where earned (for arguments sake lets say 6, with some badges being worth 2 or 3) - you'd have access to the pro servers until your badges expired (1 week).

Points systems could still be supported, and even run across server operators, for weekly and monthly pick-up racing leagues likes the CTRA GP points system, or even a lifetime league like the old licence levels, but access to the 'pro' servers wouldn't be based off this.

That is/was my vision for B2 anyway.

Anyway it looks like I might be looking for work again soon, so maybe i'll have the chance to code it lolz *sigh*...

Quote from Becky Rose :

The entire Blue 2 design revolves around a neural network. With Franky supporting the project and a few of the big teams already willing to run nodes on the network there is already sufficient bandwidth to connect to the entirety of LFS.

That's aboslutely it, using 2 different types of messaging (IM and Mail) the system will allow communication ingame, all will integrate to a Skype/MSN style IM client available on multiple platforms, and the web portal.

so lfs meets fidonet?

I really just miss browsing the server list and seeing a full server that isn't some of the faster or open wheel cars. It was fun to drive around in the Uf1 or the XFG on a huge server trying to get a win and rack up some points. Now the L1 server has 1 player. Demo servers just don't cut it.

Hope something can be resurrected soon.

Quote from Becky Rose :

The entire Blue 2 design revolves around a neural network.

Soon to be known as SkyNet. Keep a sharp eye out for future Connors.

Going by the description this sounds more like a distributed system than what would be called a neural network per se. Although I must admit the latter does sound catchier.

Never mind all that. Bring back the Clean Racers Club!

I liked CTRA because it was like a 'retard sponge' that mopped up all the idiots from the rest of the online community, meaning we could have a good race by giving it a wide berth, now CTRA is dead they flood the other servers I used to frequent.

Of course there were a minority of good racers on CTRA servers, always up the front, while everyone else crashed behind.

Is it just me that thinks Blue2 sounds a bit like Skynet?

Quote from 5haz :

I liked CTRA because it was like a 'retard sponge' that mopped up all the idiots from the rest of the online community, meaning we could have a good race by giving it a wide berth, now CTRA is dead they flood the other servers I used to frequent.

Of course there were a minority of good racers on CTRA servers, always up the front, while everyone else crashed behind.

Is it just me that thinks Blue2 sounds a bit like Skynet?

Not sure I agree with that. I think the CTRA system resulted in a generally higher standard of driving than other servers that were less well controlled.

However, the fact that it was so popular did tend to keep the numbers lower on the other servers and smaller grids always result in a higher standard of racing simply because the drivers who are idiots stand out like sore thumbs.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Not sure I agree with that. I think the CTRA system resulted in a generally higher standard of driving than other servers that were less well controlled.

On Race 2/SS 2 and above, it did.

On Race 1/SS 1, it certainly did not. IMO.

Quote from xaotik :

Going by the description this sounds more like a distributed system than what would be called a neural network per se. Although I must admit the latter does sound catchier.

i think the current cutting edge buzzword for what shes describing is cloud computing
sounds a bit carebearish though... 10 points if you can guess which care bear tristan is

Quote from Shotglass :

i think the current cutting edge buzzword for what shes describing is cloud computing
sounds a bit carebearish though... 10 points if you can guess which care bear tristan is

I admit to a childhood devoid of such fine points of education as care bear pedigree. So, as an adult seeking insight, I cheated and scrolled up and down the, alarmingly extensive, wikipedia entry for "care bears". Based on visual data acquired from said article and cross-referencing it to popular opinion I'd say he's probably expected to be this one.

Personally, I just missed the good old racing. I miss the track layouts, I miss how the servers were almost ALWAYS full. I miss how when i raced i usually could say hi to a friendly face, or at least if i was losing a lot, i could ask for a bit of advice.

I also really miss the BnJ layouts...

but this new idea sounds very promising, and almost seems like a very big undertaking. o.o I wish i could almost pay you to finish this project. XD

(but i have no job... > > and i'm 18 so i kinda need to start worrying about getting myself started in life... soooo.. yeah.. > >)

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Not sure I agree with that. I think the CTRA system resulted in a generally higher standard of driving than other servers that were less well controlled.

However, the fact that it was so popular did tend to keep the numbers lower on the other servers and smaller grids always result in a higher standard of racing simply because the drivers who are idiots stand out like sore thumbs.

The leading 5 or so were always very good drivers, behind them was always a storm of complete ineptitude.

Quote from 5haz :

The leading 5 or so were always very good drivers, behind them was always a storm of complete ineptitude.

I spent a huge amount of time on race1, mostly starting the back of the pack, my experiences were very positive.