The online racing simulator
#26 - Woz
Quote from KiDCoDEa :Like if u want to see the full dynamic Professional Online racing code try NetKar Pro...

Quote from KiDCoDEa :take a hike dude.
as if u know what i know or not about tyre models. as if u have a clue of what i test or not. see my name in gtp and lfs testing? chill please.
You seem to enjoy the magneto-rail technology invented by fisherprice in the late 70s and how its built in nk, so be it. praise it at will.
just dont tell other ppl to shut it, invoking dillemas u clearly have, disguised under some fascizoid moralistic attitude.
it wasnt me that brought nkp to the discussion. in fact i thought the discussion was around dat theme.
and if u believe everything kunos writes, then how do u explain the nkp fiasco and the history of lies he has behind him (and no i dont mean the un-met schedules).
let ppl express their opinions freely and please dont talk for everyone else on matters that are clearly subjective to each own.
have a nice day, bully.

ps: discussing tyre model of nk, is like discussing if blue is the new yellow while there's a nuclear war going on.
nk doesnt even need tyres. u can drive cars without tyres. on air. or even flip it over and drive upsidedown. yeah its a "bug", dat was supposed to be cleaned and done 3 years ago. he even mocked ppl who reported it, saying the "no brainer" was squashed. Oh the delight. Funny its still here, just like the rest of the game. funny indeed. we do have fun with it. and we dont even need to play it. thanks nk.

I think you need to step away from the PC and clam down or back out of this thread.

If you re-read my post you will see there is no mention about NKP online code. This is due to the fact this thread is about tires, tire models and pacejka. I simply pointed out that Racer and other sims use a static pre-calculated version of pacejka while NKP uses the full dynamic version of the model. This was an answer to the person that started the tread as was to let him see that there are different ways to implement pacejka.

What would be really good is if you could let me know how you managed to get from my post, which you quoted, to your response also re-quoted below.

Quote from Woz :The way racer and many other sims use pacejka is from pre-calculated curves and so the figures are good up to a point. If you want to see the full dynamic pacejka in operation try NetKar Pro.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :Like if u want to see the full dynamic Professional Online racing code try NetKar Pro...

I have tried to be as nice as possible in my response and not attack you personally by please do not try to hijack this thread with another LFS vs NKP, LFS vs rF or LFS vs ??. There are many "My X is bigger than your X" threads here and on RSC for you to fight in, this is not the thread for that and please do not try to make it so.
Don't feed the trolls, just ignore KiDCoDEa he will get bored eventually.
Meh, he's just passionate. Nothing wrong with that
#29 - axus
Quote from Shotglass :btw doesnt the alinging moment also influence the way the contact patch deforms ?

I should expect so... I'm thinking maybe ithe alingning moment didn't really influence the handling of that car in racer, its just the general feel of racer (and most other sims out there) with all the oversteer and lack of control... Does anyone know how the slip angle is calculated in a simulation? Is aligning moment part of that equation? I have two equations (front and rear) which look a bit dodgy and lacking certain parameters...

[B]Calculating the slip angle of a front tyre[/B]

SlipAngle_f = ArcTan([v_lat + v_angular * {[Distance from the wheel to the CoG on the Y axis]}]/v_long) - ([Steer including toe and ackerman]) * sgn(v_long)

(sgn(x) = 1 for x > 0, sgn(x) = 0 for x = 0 and sgn(x) = -1 for x < 0)


[B]Calculating the slip angle of a rear tyre[/B]

SlipAngle_r = ArcTan([v_lat + v_angular * {[Distance from the wheel to the CoG on the Y axis]}]/v_long)

Slip angle is just the angle between the direction the tire is pointing versus travelling. I.e., you can project the tire side vector (the axis the tire spins around) onto the ground, then do a dot product with that and the velocity vector of the center of the tire to get slip angle. Aligning torque doesn't "cause" slip angle at all, rather it's the other way around. Slip angle is just the angle.

Aligning torque is caused by slip angle, essentially. In that Pacejka paper earlier in the thread there are some diagrams that show what's happening in the contact patch in the case of pure slip (where slip angle exists, but there's no slip ratio). Rubber enters the contact patch a little bit pulled to the side of the wheel center plane, then is progressively pulled further and further to the side as it travels toward the rear. At some point it then slips back toward the center.

What happens is that the "force centroid," or the effective center of that force, is not in the center of the tire in most cases. The force centroid is like a center of gravity really. All the little forces throughout the contact patch, when added up, are the same as some bigger force acting at one specific spot in the patch. You can see more distortion in the rear of the tire than the front in most cases, so it should be fairly intuitive that the force centroid is usually toward the rear of the tire.

This distance from the center of the tire to the force centroid is called the "pneumatic trail," and since that force is acting behind the center of the tire it tries to twist the tire. Generally it tries to straighten it up, but actually at really large slip angles it can reverse itself (i.e., it makes a torque). The aligning torque is simply this pneumatic trail times the lateral force.

Caster angle then adds an additional distance to that pneumatic trail. I.e., a line through the steering axis intersects the ground at a point. The lateral force acts behind that, so you get an additional torque. The distance from that point to the center of the tire is called the "mechanical trail." So aligning torque becomes (mechanical trail + pneumatic trail) * lateral force.

The aligning torque really doesn't do much to the handling. All it really indicates is that the force centroid is moving a little bit forward/rearward as a function of slip angle. This primarily is just a steering force feedback thing happening.

What about slip ratio and aligning torque?

The simpler answer is that slip ratio produces a forward force in the tire plane. If that force acts in the center of the contact patch along the width of the tire (even if it's toward the rear or front of center), then there would not be any aligning torque contribution due to slip ratio. The force goes straight forward in the tire plane so there's no torque generated.

In reality the situation is not quite so perfect. The force centroid could very well be slightly to the left/right of center (especially with camber) which indeed would give you a little different aligning torque once you change the slip ratio via throttle/brakes. The effect is generally not very big though, and again, for the most part all this is doing is changing the feedback through the steering wheel. Moving the center of force at the tire around in the contact patch a couple of inches isn't going to make a noticable difference in the handling. Although the feel through the steering wheel would be different, and some people appear to judge the handling by the force feedback more than they do the actual balance/understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car.

A little on Pacejka: First, Dr. Pacejka has written a TON of tire models, not just the well known Magic Formula used in Racer and several other sims. I've got a book here published in 1971 that has several other tire models written by Dr. Pacejka, and they're quite advanced. He's been doing tire models for at least 35 years then in that case. There's a reason his Magic Tire model is used in real vehicle dynamics research. It's possible to reproduce real tire test data very accurately with it.

The snag that sim developers run into when trying to implement specifically his Magic Formula is in combining lateral/longitudinal forces. I.e., if you use that formula with say 4 degrees slip angle and no slip ratio, and the constants are chosen correctly to match up with a real tire, the force and aligning moment you get out of the model matches the real tire exactly. If you ran 0 slip angle and 0.05 slip ratio in the same equation with the proper constants for longitudinal slip, again, you'll get the right force.

However, once you start putting in slip angle and slip ratio at the same time, the forces all change. I.e., 4 degrees slip angle with 0 slip ratio produces a different lateral force than 4 deg and 0.05 slip ratio does. If that's not done correctly it impacts the handling in a major way. I think LFS had this problem all along until the latest update, where this now works much better. The result is a car that's easier to drive for sure, which is realistic. Don't let yourselves be fooled into hard=realistic. It just isn't the case at all...

If you get a chance to play the old arcade game Hard Drivin' or Race Drivin', give it a go. That's a vehicle model created by Doug Milliken and associates of a Corvette that uses a tire model with real tire data. I.e., that's a professional engineering model you're driving there that's dead accurate. Is it hard to drive? Not at all compared to a lot of sims, but it sure was harder to drive than Pole Position or any of the arcade games that were out at the time it was released.

You could also try Silicon Motor Speedway, the Nascar simulation. This was done by Doug Milliken too (in fact, they have a Milliken Raceway in his honor that the employees run on occassion). That again uses real tire data and is the same model they use for real research and engineering on real cars.

So if you guys are looking for a benchmark for simulation reality, try those titles and then judge all these other sims based on those.
Quote from Shotglass :
btw doesnt the alinging moment also influence the way the contact patch deforms ?

It's the other way around. The tire deformation causes the aligning moment.
#32 - axus
Ah! But! We have just been having a discussion on this with Tristan... logically, the position of the application of the sideforce (which causes aligning torque) relative to the "force centeroid" will move as you get longitudinal slip, changing aligning torque, no?
Quote from axus :Ah! But! We have just been having a discussion on this with Tristan... logically, the position of the application of the sideforce (which causes aligning torque) relative to the "force centeroid" will move as you get longitudinal slip, changing aligning torque, no?

The position of the application of sideforce IS the force centroid, so they aren't moving in relation to each other since they're the same thing.

Anyway, what you're saying is that the force centroid moves with slip ratio changes. Yes, this is true. The point where the tire starts slipping will move forward in the contact patch and the centroid will move forward as well, which would reduce aligning torque. The question is "how much?" My model does this and I suspect LFS's does too, but I'm not yet calculating the force centroid position so don't know how much it might move.

All in all what you've got here from a simulation perspective is just that the force centroid is moving around. In reality it's moving due to camber, slip angle, load, slip ratio, and so on all the time, so the aligning torque is indeed being effected. However, what you're doing is moving this force centroid around solely within that tiny little contact patch. I.e., it's not going to go very far, so the effect on handling is probably negligable. Professional engineering models frequently don't even bother with it. The only important part of that effect is force feedback, so you could really just ignore the aligning torque at the rear wheels completely and nobody would know the difference.

Effectively what you're doing is altering the effective wheelbase and track width dynamically in real time, but I doubt it changes enough to even notice.
#34 - axus
Inetresting... wonder how this would affect understeer FF if it was simulated (assuming it isn't already).

EDIT: A forward force would twist the contact patch backwards and presumably move the force centeroid backwards, correct?

BTW, thank you for your replies, always a pleasure to read something that informative.
Quote from axus :A forward force would twist the contact patch backwards and presumably move the force centeroid backwards, correct?

id say forwards
Quote from jtw62074 :If you get a chance to play the old arcade game Hard Drivin' or Race Drivin', give it a go. That's a vehicle model created by Doug Milliken and associates of a Corvette that uses a tire model with real tire data. I.e., that's a professional engineering model you're driving there that's dead accurate. Is it hard to drive? Not at all compared to a lot of sims, but it sure was harder to drive than Pole Position or any of the arcade games that were out at the time it was released

I used to play those regularly years ago, I could not beleive they were not more popular than they were

I had no idea the background though, that's interesting trivia
Here's measured data from a real tire:

http://www.performancesimulations.com/files/tire3.JPG

The solid lines are 4 deg slip angle. The one on top marked Fy is the side force (the up/down part is anyway; the left right coordinate is longitudinal) while the Mz is the aligning torque. What they are doing there is locking the tire at 4 deg and 8 deg slip angle, then changing the traction/braking force (slip ratio) in a sweep and then measuring side force and aligning torque. (See how the side force changes with slip ratio? This is what the lateral/longitudinal "force combining" stuff is all about. It's got a big impact on handling and now works a lot better in LFS with the latest patches).

At 0 traction/braking you're looking at a constant turn there (purely slip angle) and you can see where the aligning torque is somewhere around the 65 mark. Once you start adding in traction force the aligning torque increases to a point and then drops off. If you brake, the aligning torque drops and eventually even reverses direction. Keep in mind though that this is at 0 caster. If you ran enough caster these curves would change and might not reverse under braking. I.e., this is not taking into account caster or kingpin axis geometric effects.

Primarily what is probably causing this is that you're changing the vertical load distribution along the length of the contact patch considerably when you add traction/braking, which influences where the contact patch begins to slide and will then move the force centroid.

Under braking, you load up the front of the contact patch and unload the rear, so the sliding point moves forward along with the centroid. You have less aligning torque.

Under acceleration, you load up the rear of the patch, which up to a point could possibly be moving the sliding point rearward along with the force centroid (where the aligning torque is shown increasing). At some point though with enough traction force the slip point and force centroid will move forward and the aligning torque then starts dropping (on the left side of the graph where the Mz lines start going back towards the axis).

So I suppose everybody here is right and wrong at the same time (myself included), depending on the situation

I have no idea if this is modelled in LFS. I usually only drive with spring centering and no FF. But again, this isn't probably going to impact the handling balance very much. It's all really just the feel through your FF that's being effected.
Nice ( but deja-vu ) thread, anyway, i dont think LFS use pacejka magic formula

BTW, Todd, is there some paper about real tire physics somewhere, physics formula about contact patch deformation, how to compute real lateral/longitudinal force without magic formula but from real physics.
I guess, it must use very high frequency, but i'd love to do some research about this during my 2 month holliday when TDU will be finished ^^
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#40 - axus
More interesting reading, Todd. I see they have "positive slip angle" and "negative slip angle" in the legend. I can see on the diagram where they are but they are in roughly the same place. I can't quite figure out how that works... does this diagram go with a text document or is it a scan from a book or something?

Quote from MagicFr :Nice ( but deja-vu ) thread, anyway, i dont think LFS use pacejka magic formula

BTW, Todd, is there some paper about real tire physics somewhere, physics formula about contact patch deformation, how to compute real lateral/longitudinal force without magic formula but from real physics.
I guess, it must use very high frequency, but i'd love to do some research about this during my 2 month holliday when TDU will be finished ^^

I've been doing some thinking about this. If you could manage a very accurate tyre deformation representation (considering temperature, sidewall stiffness, tyre flexibility etc etc.) and you could work out a "contact patch load distribution diagram" (you could also use a displacement map type of thing for the tyre shape if you wanted to get ambitious), and also "longitudinal displacement" and "lateral displacement" of each bit of tyre... then consider the tyre's elasticity (based on temperature of course , merely tyre compound wouldn't be all that accurate) and as such the force with which that bit of tyre tries to move back to its original place both laterally and longitudinally... then you'd probably "multiply" that by the "contact patch load distribution diagram" to get the actual force on the road that that bit of tyre produces. Do that for the whole tyre and you could end up with the force centeroid position, and a lateral and longitudinal force... I know this is rather ambitious for real time processing but you could put this all in a table and attempt to generate equations from there or alternatively make a "canned" engine. (I know I've expressed my negative thoughts on those but maybe... if you got an accurate enough lookup table... just maybe it would work). Or do I have something inherently wrong with my theory? I can see it generating simmilar curves to what they are in reality. If you don't distort the contact patch enough you don't have enough displacement to produce a sufficient force. If you distort it too much your contact patch distribution is messy.

On a side note about FF, shouldn't lateral displacement of the centeroid combined with a longitudinal force also generate aligning torque which would go through FF?
Quote from axus : (skip..)I know this is rather ambitious for real time processing but you could put this all in a table and attempt to generate equations from there or alternatively make a "canned" engine. (..skip)

Well, i take for example TDU, the collision detection works @ 100hz, and the internal calculation ( engine to contact patch through drivetrain ) is @ 1000hz.
I'm sure on PC i could use 10.000hz without big problem because it is lot of calculation, but it is small and simple calculation, with not much data to read, so, there is very few data/code cache misses, and so, it would be rather fast to calculate
So.. with 10.000hz i think we could have pretty accurate and stable force integration to compute spring/damping with high rates Tire models are sort of complexes spring/damping model

Quote :On a side note about FF, shouldn't lateral displacement of the centeroid combined with a longitudinal force also generate aligning torque which would go through FF?

I think it is more about lateral force, because lat force is ,i think, applied at center of contact patch, wich is a not centered, also depending of suspension geometry, will also create a force that act against the driver force on the steering wheel. And because lateral force and longitudinal force are combined, it's all connected. Tha's why you feel the steering wheel lighter when the front wheel are slipping.. front wheel slipping = high slip ratio = smaller lateral forces = steering wheel lighter .. without change of the slip angles.

Correct me if i'm wrong

cheers,
#42 - axus
As I understand it now, it is all based on aligning torque. Aligning torque is due to the fact that the force centeroid is not at the center of the wheel and creates a twisting force on the wheel. The force centeroid is behind the wheel center in most cases as I understand it, so the torque is created by the lateral force. However, with lateral slip, the force centeroid moves to the side also, so a longitudinal force would also create aligning toruqe.... Todd?
Quote from MagicFr :Well, i take for example TDU, the collision detection works @ 100hz, and the internal calculation ( engine to contact patch through drivetrain ) is @ 1000hz.
I'm sure on PC i could use 10.000hz without big problem because it is lot of calculation...

Hi magic, remember that raising Hz has limit because with higher Hz you multiply the computation (and model) errors. There is a limit where accurracy is coming down with the hertz growing. Anyway I don't know where is this limit, it is hard to calculate and to test but possible.

Anyway thanks for this interesting, thanks to Todd and others !
Quote from axus :More interesting reading, Todd. I see they have "positive slip angle" and "negative slip angle" in the legend. I can see on the diagram where they are but they are in roughly the same place. I can't quite figure out how that works... does this diagram go with a text document or is it a scan from a book or something?



I've been doing some thinking about this. If you could manage a very accurate tyre deformation representation (considering temperature, sidewall stiffness, tyre flexibility etc etc.) and you could work out a "contact patch load distribution diagram" (you could also use a displacement map type of thing for the tyre shape if you wanted to get ambitious), and also "longitudinal displacement" and "lateral displacement" of each bit of tyre... then consider the tyre's elasticity (based on temperature of course , merely tyre compound wouldn't be all that accurate) and as such the force with which that bit of tyre tries to move back to its original place both laterally and longitudinally... then you'd probably "multiply" that by the "contact patch load distribution diagram" to get the actual force on the road that that bit of tyre produces. Do that for the whole tyre and you could end up with the force centeroid position, and a lateral and longitudinal force... I know this is rather ambitious for real time processing but you could put this all in a table and attempt to generate equations from there or alternatively make a "canned" engine. (I know I've expressed my negative thoughts on those but maybe... if you got an accurate enough lookup table... just maybe it would work). Or do I have something inherently wrong with my theory? I can see it generating simmilar curves to what they are in reality. If you don't distort the contact patch enough you don't have enough displacement to produce a sufficient force. If you distort it too much your contact patch distribution is messy.

That's pretty much what I've been doing for a few years now Runs in real time with no problem at all; see Virtual RC Racing. There are no look up tables or anything like that in there either.

Quote :
On a side note about FF, shouldn't lateral displacement of the centeroid combined with a longitudinal force also generate aligning torque which would go through FF?

Yes. I think I covered that in an earlier post.
Quote from axus :As I understand it now, it is all based on aligning torque. Aligning torque is due to the fact that the force centeroid is not at the center of the wheel and creates a twisting force on the wheel. The force centeroid is behind the wheel center in most cases as I understand it, so the torque is created by the lateral force. However, with lateral slip, the force centeroid moves to the side also, so a longitudinal force would also create aligning toruqe.... Todd?

Right.

On top of this what's probably more important is the suspension geometry effects such as Sebastien mentioned. Even if the force centroid was in the middle of the contact patch you would get aligning torque feedback through the steering wheel due to caster angle and any kingpin axis that doesn't intersect the middle of the tire. Kingpin axis is just like caster, but viewed from the front of the car instead of the side.
I think given that a) LFS appears to model tyre deformation as a integral part of the simulation, and b) scawen has never let on any details about how the tyre model works, we can probably assume that LFS has been doing it too.

It would also explain how the LFS tyre model seems to be 'different' to other standard pacejka models, and how it has at times done wierd things that havent just been fixed by a bit of value tweaking.
Quote from MagicFr :
BTW, Todd, is there some paper about real tire physics somewhere, physics formula about contact patch deformation, how to compute real lateral/longitudinal force without magic formula but from real physics.
I guess, it must use very high frequency, but i'd love to do some research about this during my 2 month holliday when TDU will be finished ^^

There are quite a lot of papers out there. Dr. Pacejka released a book a couple of years back on some his his models (not just the Magic Model). The only person I talk to specifically about my own model with is Dr. Gregor Veble of Racing Legends though, sorry
Quote from jtw62074 :Right.

On top of this what's probably more important is the suspension geometry effects such as Sebastien mentioned. Even if the force centroid was in the middle of the contact patch you would get aligning torque feedback through the steering wheel due to caster angle and any kingpin axis that doesn't intersect the middle of the tire. Kingpin axis is just like caster, but viewed from the front of the car instead of the side.

So presumably if you had a tyre model that located the force centroid, you wouldnt actually need any 'aligning moment' graphs in the pajecka sense. You would just have a force centroid, and a steering axis/ground intersection point, and voila you have your aligning forces pneumatic and mechanical combined.
Quote from colcob :So presumably if you had a tyre model that located the force centroid, you wouldnt actually need any 'aligning moment' graphs in the pajecka sense. You would just have a force centroid, and a steering axis/ground intersection point, and voila you have your aligning forces pneumatic and mechanical combined.

Bingo.
#50 - axus
Quote from jtw62074 :That's pretty much what I've been doing for a few years now Runs in real time with no problem at all; see Virtual RC Racing. There are no look up tables or anything like that in there either.

Very impressive indeed. I presume its in that Virtual RC simulation? Any plans for putting it in anything else?

FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG