you can't really complain yet since lfs isn't even beta and you haven't paid any money to own an s2 licence.
you can't really complain yet since lfs isn't even beta and you haven't paid any money to own an s2 licence.
Why?
That's a good thing. Unrealistic behavior could also be the result of a setup that is not achievable in real racing, not a physics model issue. I can't say how much setting ranges are off limits (if I can set for example a suspension to be way more soft or stiff than real suspensions) but I'm sure about one thing. Road cars shouldn't be so adjustable. Even when you do an upgrade to a car, you fit the new part and in majority of the cases that's it. The story finishes there. You have an improved car but not an adjustable one.
LFS is a racing simulator. I don't want it in order to test hypothetical setups that doesn't exist. I want it to put me in the shoes of a race driver.
You got everything wrong!!! I'm not complaining!!! I mentioned the problem hoping that could help developers to fix it, if they aren't already aware of it!
That's only a valid comeback if they are complaining about lack of content. If you tried the demo of <insert race sim here> and though the physics needed improvement, I'm sure you could go to that games forum and discuss it.
I 100% agree with you, you brought out a very important issue.
Most of licensed users are so narrow-minded about demo users
ah sorry i'm that used to people complaining
(my mother does it all the time :razz
(my mother does it all the time :razz
Of course not. Real. But we are talking about curbs here.
That's totally another thing. The green car hit the red and lifted it in the air.
Here is a well known incident between Michael Schumacher and Damon Hill. Last race of the season, Adelaide Street Circuit. Schumacher won the championship (his first F1 title) over Damon Hill for only one point due to this incident.
But that's a different story. In that kind of situations cars have a good reason to leave track's surface...
edit1: I have to mention Mark Webber's incident which maybe well known because Webber drives for years in F1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2Jqp27XFM
Webber's incident was something unusual. But as it proved it had to do with an aerodynamic fault. It's obvious it isn't a typical race car behavior.
edit2: Another link with a Mercedes from the same race --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFN_Gp1eHN0
You are free to believe what ever you want. I just declared my position.
I honestly think that LFS is one of the best simulators and it doesn't deserve any complaints. I also think suggestions can be a good starting point for further improvement.
I just wanted to point out that the video's posted above have nothing to do with flipping by hitting a curb or anything. And race cars can flip.. what else is new?
I posted the videos in response to JoRuss video. I explained that they haven't anything to do with curbs.
Race cars flip but that's not common. They flip because of crashing which is understandable or in Webber's Mercedes case due to bad aerodynamic design.
My point was (and if I didn't make it obvious I will try to make it clear now) that it is almost impossible for a car to flip by hitting track's curbs or bumps. And if that happens it must be a problem with the car (that's why I made an edit to point to Mercedes video).
The conclusion from the above is that I don't believe the way FBM reacts on curbs is normal and it should be revised.
I watched the replay and you took the corner too early, bouncing your left side up while cornering left (=G forces pulling the car to right), while the weight was off the car's left side which bounced off the track... Just add these together and I would dare to say you could flip pretty much any car IRL
My point was it doesn't matter what was the cause, curbs or something else (car for example) when you doin' it wrong you can't expect the game to not punish you for your actions. Once you get past the verge of flipping it's one way road...
You basically went into uphill turn too early, bumped left side while turning at 140km/h with 2g side acceleration... how'd you expect to end that if not by flipping
You basically went into uphill turn too early, bumped left side while turning at 140km/h with 2g side acceleration... how'd you expect to end that if not by flipping
Losing control, spinning?
But that's not the only replay. I uploaded another one in which car flipped while doing 100 km/h. And another one with FBM on two wheels...
You are making the assumption that this only happens with the FBM. It doesn't. It will happen with other cars too depending on the angle you hit the curb, the speed you are going, and how the car is setup. Search for physics, exploding curbs (kerbs), roll over, etc.
You are also missing the point about those curbs. Those are not normal curbs and you won't find them on any F1 track in the world. That corner is about a 80mph or more corner and that's a lot of force being slammed through a very rigid frame with probably a very rigid suspension setup. Plus, you are pulling at least 2gs through that corner. Put those things together, you get a roll-over. In the real world, the car might not roll over, but you wouldn't be going any further anyway because of a broken suspension and possibly a broken frame. So the point is, don't hit that curb.
The contact patch problem is a possible contributor to what you are seeing. Also, there could be a problem with hitting the car frame and we also know in certain situations, that can cause massive forces to occur that aren't normal. However, this is nothing new. It is a bit unusual to see a FBM do a roll over, but that is an off camber corner with a very high and sharp curb. It's going to ruin your day one way or another if you keep hitting that curb so don't hit it.
Quit fretting over this and go learn the lines and have fun. It is a gravity problem. It isn't a CoG or rotation problem. It isn't really a tire model problem.
I've said a couple of times already. There are other two more unrealistic incidents. I also flipped the car with 100 kph in the first corner. That's about 60 mph. And in my second replay I drove on two wheels for a second or two. I put effort to keep it in the track and land it. I insist that's not a typical behavior for an open wheeler. I don't care if the right outcome is a damaged suspension or anything else. The game is a simulation title and I expect the right behavior, even if this means a totaled car.
Look Bawbag's WR 1:12.080. At the start of the replay he does the same corner with 160 kph, 100 mph. He runs over the curb but the car doesn't flip. Maybe the problem is the setup.
Anyway, I will try to avoid the curbs... In fact, I don't use them too much. It just happened these days to flip so I opened that topic...
Your replay looks just like what a stuntman would do if he wanted to flip his car over. Live and learn.
Are you sure you watched the replays?
Because I consider 100 kph as a slow speed for a one seater, slow enough to prevent rollovers. (In fact slow enough to prevent many kinds of racing accidents).
Did you watch the two wheels drive? I don't think Formula BMW is an ordinary car for that kind of stunts. Actually open wheelers aren't good for stunts at all. Stunt cars are specially tuned.
And in the case of the uphill turn I didn't make the perfect entry, but I have seen worse in racing and in most cases cars ending up out of the road with wheels facing down.
100kph is not that fast, but hitting head on into a concrete wall is also for a single seater seriously fast. The chassis will be broken and the entire car will have to be rebuild..and everybody who isn't in serious good condition will stay in hospital for some time.
I seems you don't want to hear it, you drive up a steep and 15cm-20cm high curb at 100+ km/h and complain something happens that makes it impossible to continue race. It does not matter if the wheel should have broken off or flip the over. You are out of race, that is realistic. Since formula cars are very,very strong, irl the suspension would bent slightly making the car so bad to drive you have to retire from race. And in this case, with the giving angles, g-loads and steering input irl you might also flipped over the car.
If you buy lfs and start racing the hot gtr hatchbacks, it will be a lot worse, you can flip those over low curbs, and they do that irl life too
Well as I already wrote (#43) I expect from a simulator the right behavior. If that means a broken suspension which would lead to a retirement it's OK.
Although, even with a bended suspension you can drive the car very fast. Watch this replay --> http://www.filedropper.com/steering and notice that in some straights I don't full throttle because I gave up the effort for a better position. And even without pushing the car I can steel do 1:22. Notice also how much I should steer in order to keep the car in a straight line, in order to understand how damaged the suspension is.
edit: I forgot to write it...
I don't know if the curb is 20 cm high (it's difficult to estimate its height and I don't know if there is a way to measure it) but if it is so high it must be redesigned. Curbs aren't there to cause accidents...
Or you could just not launch yourself off of it. Or ride it only after you're done pulling so much lateral G.
I am sorry i have to disappoint you, there is no such thing as a perfect simulation
Also, what exactly happens when you destroy your car, is not very interesting for a simulation; you're out of race, if the wheel came off, you flipped over of got launched to the moon.. so what..The curb in itself is ok, i never,ever flipped my car and i did .. many, many many(!) laps at bl gp. Just don't steer in too early and if you do, evade that inside curb! irl there are tracks too where you just cannot drive onto the innerside curb because its too high.
It is indeed possible to do a 1:22 with bent suspension, that is about 10 seconds slower then wr time. I will be worried if you can do 1:14 or better with seriously damaged car.
About the 1:22 watch the replay. I don't full throttle because after the accident I thought my chances for a better position were ruined. I do a 1:22 because I don't push the car! If you watch the replay carefully it is quite obvious. (Watch the green bar that represents the throttle pedal). And notice how many degrees I have to steer the wheel left in order to drive the car in a straight line. The suspension is really damaged... (And your comparison with the WR is not fair. I usually drive around 1:15 to 1:16. My PB is 1:14.57. I did it yesterday!)
As of what is interesting or not, I don't care. If developers start to think that way they will develop an arcade game. Arcade driving games are more interesting for the majority of users. You can easily find out by checking the sales of many arcade titles. They are not even comparable with simulation titles.
And of course simulation can get better. There is not perfect simulation, I agree. But it can get better and better. And in case of LFS it does in every new patch. (Right now we expect a new tire model).
There are examples of better simulation of car damage. Drive for example rFactor's mod FSONE and you'll see that when you lose a wing (especially the rear) the car is almost undrivable. You have to drive slowly to the pits for a new wing. (When the front wing is damaged you have way far less braking power). And of course in a high speed crash, the engine breaks down.
In LFS a damaged body doesn't affect aerodynamics (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=192109#post192109). I don't know if the majority of LFS users want this to stay as it is, but personally I prefer the realistic approach. It's not good when someone has smashed his front wing to rejoin the race without problem. In a real race a mistake like that usually costs you some positions. And because of that a real race isn't about fast laps only, but it is essential to keep your car intact.
Looking from the best angle I can from shift+u, the final corner curb is about 20cm or so at its top. A few real racetracks have similar curbs, so it's not that out of the ordinary.
I've seen SS cars get launched on another's tyre and not sustain any major damage (usually will break something though) and the forces involved there would be higher than bouncing off a curb at a guess, so not sustaining damage on that curb wouldn't be out of the question. At that kind of speed I wouldn't have thought it impossible to roll a car hitting a similar curb in RL, especially with the amount of lateral force going on. I've seen touring cars almost roll on shallower curbs, although it's usually corrected by the driver so they don't actually roll all the way.
As far as loss of downforce and breakable wings are concerned, Scawen has said that breakable wings are in the works for S2 to get out of alpha, so I would assume loss of downforce will go along with that.
I've seen SS cars get launched on another's tyre and not sustain any major damage (usually will break something though) and the forces involved there would be higher than bouncing off a curb at a guess, so not sustaining damage on that curb wouldn't be out of the question. At that kind of speed I wouldn't have thought it impossible to roll a car hitting a similar curb in RL, especially with the amount of lateral force going on. I've seen touring cars almost roll on shallower curbs, although it's usually corrected by the driver so they don't actually roll all the way.
As far as loss of downforce and breakable wings are concerned, Scawen has said that breakable wings are in the works for S2 to get out of alpha, so I would assume loss of downforce will go along with that.
Realism Issue - FBM rollover and 2 wheels driving!
(57 posts, started )
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