I am sure that this topic has spoke other times. But in my opinion is the most necessary to correct, I think that it is primordial to correct this "bug" than add new cars or tracks, or interior of cars. And that is why I open a new topic.

I think that this is the simulator with best physics (yes, I say that after try iRacing and rFactor and all other sims) but have a big problem.

I think that is the worst problem in LFS physics, and IMO the first need to correct.

Less tyre temperatures, less rise, down faster and more wear.

I hope that this comment is taken as constructive criticism

And... sorry for my bad english

Maybe the warm tyre temps are because the tyres are already a little warm when you pit. If you actually just wait for like 30 mins or more your tyre temperature will drop below 30 or 40 or whatever it is when you pit.
IRL the cars are in their garage and the tyres get to cooldown so much that next day when you go driving it takes that time to get the tyres warmed up.

lol i dont have experiance in race tyres but road performace tyres will heat up to the point of being to hot in 2/4 laps and cool down to around 50 degs in about 10mins of being pited
mind you this is agresive driving

Quote from Napalm Candy :

Less tyre temperatures, less rise, down faster and more wear.

Actually it should be heating faster (spinning tyres should have temperatures shooting up like crazy), cooling down A LOT faster on the tread, a bit slower to transfer the heat to the core (the difference between tread and core is 1-2° C, it should be more detached from one another), but the wear seems reasonable as it is now...

Quote from bbman :

Actually it should be heating faster (spinning tyres should have temperatures shooting up like crazy), cooling down A LOT faster on the tread, a bit slower to transfer the heat to the core (the difference between tread and core is 1-2° C, it should be more detached from one another), but the wear seems reasonable as it is now...

I don't thought this, but it is a good possibility. But, now the core is stable at color green or blue, but if rubber is in orange, tires are too hot to drive at high performance, so the problem is the stability/handle of rubber. Rubber is insulation therefore not allow the transfer of heat/change temperature easily.

Quote from MAD3.0LT :

lol i dont have experiance in race tyres but road performace tyres will heat up to the point of being to hot in 2/4 laps and cool down to around 50 degs in about 10mins of being pited
mind you this is agresive driving

From your experiences can you describe how grip levels vary throughout a run for interest sake

I agree, tyres get too warm too easy for my liking, I'd prefer more durability in the heat cycle of the tyre with less heat build up.
There is the argument that smoother drivers will loose an advantage but I find I can't drive flat out for long with our cooking the rubber which winds me up some what. I love LFS but IMO Rfactor and the tyres not loosing so much grip when hot does a better job than LFS but that's the only area its better.

Its a shame when its such an easy thing to change, giving more heat durability, I mean wouldn't that make for better all round racing while giving drivers the ability to improve their high speed driving due to a more stable car at longer intervals. I think LFS tyre parameters holds drivers back in a lot of ways and stops drivers finding their true speed.

Maybe 15 or 20% better heat resistance / grip loss

Thus giving the ability to drive flat out and let the driver make errors rather than going off because the tyres are hot enough to cook an egg on would be a step forward IMO

For those who argue the other way maybe introducing more of an negative effect from large flat spots, that would deal with the idiot drivers getting more grip and help the smoother drivers keep their skill advantage?

SO A better and more neiagtive FFB effect for flat spots and punctures and 15-20% better heat management on the rubber please

Peace

Quote from Glenn67 :

From your experiences can you describe how grip levels vary throughout a run for interest sake

extream loss of grip on road tyres once they get to hot

i was losing about10/20kph turn in on 2nd/3rd gear corner's cause the tyres were just that hot and the back end became extreamly slippery ALOT worse then lfs makes out\


im not sure i can describe but ill give u a run down of one of the runs

warm up lap was all good
lap 1
qr first corner brake at 100 meter sign from 190 to 130 turn in full power befor apex hit 5500 in 3rd gear break down to 110 turn in foot flat controled slide to exit
2nd lap
about the same as first lap
3rd lap
brake for first corner at 140 meter sign at 185ish to 110 turn in easy on power and wait for car to straighten up befor full accelration slow to 95 turn it easy on power till apex then flat slight counter steer/alot of counter steer depending on car
4th lap same
5th same
6th same
7th exited due to pad failer to hot

i cant really describe the hole lap as i dont have hours or good grammer to write it but tyres really lose ALOT of grip when they are to hot

i beleave road tyres in LFS are to durable to heat and dont have enough slip passed grp levels

Quote from Napalm Candy :

I am sure that this topic has spoke other times. But in my opinion is the most necessary to correct, I think that it is primordial to correct this "bug" than add new cars or tracks, or interior of cars. And that is why I open a new topic.

I think that this is the simulator with best physics (yes, I say that after try iRacing and rFactor and all other sims) but have a big problem.

Tyres can't warm up so much, and less in such a short time, with the

aggravating that tyres need in LFS so much time to cool off.

Sometimes we confuse the wear of the wheel with temperature and when we talk about setups usually say things like "These wheels do not last neither 2 turns". So the wear of tyres is ok, some times so much, if you try to drift you will see, after 10 min have tyres at 180ºC but no much wear.

Another problem with this impossible temperatures is the handle, Is correct that a too hot tyre has less grip, but in LFS this is extreme. In the reality, with normal wheels or Slicks, 2 spins are not sufficient to heat in excess the wheels and if it was it would cool in 2 turns.

I think that is the worst problem in LFS physics, and IMO the first need to correct.

Less tyre temperatures, less rise, down faster and more wear.

I hope that this comment is taken as constructive criticism

And... sorry for my bad english

After testing many LFS cars, tracks, setups and configs: I agree completely with you. IMO the tyres for a specific car on a specific track can heat up too fast and become unusable easily, but choosing the next 'hardest' tyre means it will never reach peak operating temperature and therefore will never reach its potential for that track and car. While there seems to be nothing at all 'wrong' with the way LFS dishes out the punishment and rewards to tyre physics, it all seems a bit 'boom or bust' in the way that one minute your car is predictable and within perhaps another one third of a lap your car is now undrivable.

In general (and this is really a broad generalisation) the LFS tyres are changing too rapidly from one extreme to the other.

I believe that tyres should perform better, earlier and decay with less enthusiasm and over a longer period of time before they ultimately fail due to abuse or neglect, or both.

Another collateral problem with this, is an exponential increase in temperature, more heat less handle, less handle more slid, more slid more heat... In RL this has a limit determined by capacity of cool rubber, in LFS has low "capacity" to cool rubber so this limit is too high.

Other question is "normal" or "super" tires are very different than slicks tires. A normal or super tire in RL have the property of work well at low and high temperatures, and slicks only works well in a determined range. Slick model it is not good, but normal or super tire are worst

Quote from Gunn :

the LFS tyres are changing too rapidly from one extreme to the other.

I believe that tyres should perform better, earlier and decay with less enthusiasm and over a longer period of time before they ultimately fail due to abuse or neglect, or both.

must agree, there seems to be too much penalty for trying to squeeze a few tenths out of the lap, one minute all is fine and then the next your struggling to turn in.

as john said

Quote :

SO A better and more neiagtive FFB effect for flat spots and punctures and 15-20% better heat management on the rubber please

sounds good to me

Quote from MAD3.0LT :

extream loss of grip on road tyres once they get to hot

[snip]

i cant really describe the hole lap as i dont have hours or good grammer to write it but tyres really lose ALOT of grip when they are to hot

i beleave road tyres in LFS are to durable to heat and dont have enough slip passed grp levels

Thanks for taking the time, I'd like to get impressions from as many rl drivers as we can. Alot of us just speculate

So are you saying once you get to laps 3 and 4 that the grip level is very reduced and then stays at about that level until you pit?

I feel in LFS that grip levels keep dropping at a linear level once they go orange to red and have always wondered if that was realistic - I thought perhaps the grip levels should reduce once overheated but that the reduction in grip verses heat shouldn't be a linear relationship in the higher extreme end. But that is just speculation on my behalf so am interested to hear any real world impressions

I think quite a number of people believe that the grip levels are a little too high past the thresshold. S1 grip was too little S2 has gone a little too much so just shy of current levels might be about right but I also suspect that the way tyres regain grip in LFS in a lateral slide is not yet right so perhaps that is why they bumped the grip that little bit higher (again speculation). I speculate that better contact patch distortion simulation might improve the situation allowing lower grip over the thresshold but at the same time improving the way tyres regain grip once they start sliding.

Quote from Gunn :

After testing many LFS cars, tracks, setups and configs: I agree completely with you. IMO the tyres for a specific car on a specific track can heat up too fast and become unusable easily, but choosing the next 'hardest' tyre means it will never reach peak operating temperature and therefore will never reach its potential for that track and car. While there seems to be nothing at all 'wrong' with the way LFS dishes out the punishment and rewards to tyre physics, it all seems a bit 'boom or bust' in the way that one minute your car is predictable and within perhaps another one third of a lap your car is now undrivable.

In general (and this is really a broad generalisation) the LFS tyres are changing too rapidly from one extreme to the other.

I believe that tyres should perform better, earlier and decay with less enthusiasm and over a longer period of time before they ultimately fail due to abuse or neglect, or both.

I wouldn't neccesarily agree with this. Imo, LFS tire model works quite well around the optimum temp values. It's not like you can burn them really easily (even when driving on the limit), ofcourse if u keep drifting around they will be ruined, and the more sensitive the tire (slicks) and heavier the cars (FZR) that effect will seem a bit sudden. Imo the only part of LFS tire physics that doesnt quite work is the one from ambient temp up to pre-heated values. If you leave the tires to cool down to ambient 23 or so °C and then try to drive them hard, they wont get to operating temperature even after 2-3 laps of really REALLY agressive driving (especially air temp inside the tire, well i can understand that part since air picks up temp via convection and rubber via conduction, so the bottleneck of heat transfer will be on the air side). And maybe the other thing is once you've burned your tires.. in real life they'd blister and develop hot spots and never get back to ideal again, while in LFS you can just do the next few corners carefully and have them be great again.

In some distant future, if LFS tire physics model would be responsive to tire scrub-in periods and proper caretaking of tires that would be great, but it would require saveable sets of tires and other things.. If they could at least fix the physics from ambient temps to operating temps and have road cars leave the pits with ambient temp tires.. that'd be a lot better. Also if you ruin your tires you shouldn't get to just go easy for half a lap and everything is back to normal.. there should be a more sevear punishment

Quote from MAD3.0LT :

extream loss of grip on road tyres once they get to hot

....

i beleave road tyres in LFS are to durable to heat and dont have enough slip passed grp levels

Out of interest, if you watch replays of yourself in LFS do you believe you push the car far harder than you would IRL and could this cause the difference?

Not trying to prove anything either way, just drill for info. I ask because it appears common in sim racing for people to over push, the lack of "seat" feel causes this.

Quote from scipy :

It's not like you can burn them really easily (even when driving on the limit)...

Of course you can. You can toast them within one lap if they are at optimum temperature - the severity of the effect differs between cars, tracks and setups, but it certainly exists, especially for slick tyres.

Another problems that I don't remember to post before is the flank of the tire (lateral of the tire, i don't know if the word is correct in english) of the tire is too soft and bends too much on the curve, it should be harder, especially on slicks

I have a shifter kart 125cc 50bhp, and I feel another big difference with LFS. When I have very wear tires in my kart it don't has handle, less handle when more wear, and in LFS when make a long race, 1 hour, with a GTR the fastest laps are in the final of race with a very wear tires because it cool better and can to drive more aggressive.

And other thing commented before in another threads, is that less pressure, less handle and less wear (0.5bar in a kart) more pressure more handle and more wear (1 - 1.5bar), is totally opposite of LFS, but this is in a kart, i don't know how to work in a real car.

Quote from Woz :

Out of interest, if you watch replays of yourself in LFS do you believe you push the car far harder than you would IRL and could this cause the difference?

Not trying to prove anything either way, just drill for info. I ask because it appears common in sim racing for people to over push, the lack of "seat" feel causes this.

quiet the oppisit i beleave that in real life i push my self ALOT harder when on a race track.
(i have allways had no fear when it comes to bikes and car)

but the main real issue i have betwen RL and LFS is in LFS i have alot of infomation i can use to limit my self and in real life all i have is the feel of the car.

the bigest problem i face every time i am on the track is brake's most people dont realize that after just 2 laps the brakes are allmost gone they heat up so quick its hard to even realize when ur driving that they will be compleety gone in a few laps.


@Glenn67
So are you saying once you get to laps 3 and 4 that the grip level is very reduced and then stays at about that level until you pit?

yes what im saying is that for the way i drove after 3/4 laps the tyres were that hot it wasent linair any more.

the tyre's i was using at the time were 235/40/17 very soft direction sports tyre.

i have yet to try with slicks or to likes of RE55's (530$ per tyre) but i beleave that these tyre's would last alot longer then any road tyre in extream driving condition's

so yer in conclusion i can only voice my opnion's i have no real evidence that LFS is wrong just the feel nothing else

Quote from Gunn :

Of course you can. You can toast them within one lap if they are at optimum temperature - the severity of the effect differs between cars, tracks and setups, but it certainly exists, especially for slick tyres.

The only car in LFS that I have tire temp problems with is FXO It's just an overpowered FWD and there's no way to be fast and keep the tires nice - there are much heavier FWD cars in real life which can be driven for more than 1-2 laps on a mid-sized circut without everything going into flames. As far as slicks are concerned, in my experience if you keep them in their optimum slip angles and the setup isnt something extremley understeery/oversteery - they are quite ok.

Imo the tyres grip goes away too fast. That's my only beef with the tyre system in LFS.

The way tyres heat up from pits is fine, and tbh they cool down pretty realistically too. Tyres cool down very quickly, quicker than you may think. Stop to fill up with fuel, and if it takes you 10 minutes from getting out the car to getting back in, your tyres would have probbably cooled back down again.