Quote from Gunn :

The setup flexibility allows us to also address shortcomings in the physics.

I'd guess that most people aren't intending to be physics testers while they're racing. I'd say leave that job to the devs and their testers rather than people who are racing each other.

Quote from Gunn :

People who suck at racing will still suck at racing, no matter how uniform the setup options are.

The benefits are more about eliminating some of the more unrealistic setups from the road cars (and eliminating the need to use them) rather than helping sucky racers. Many people who suck at racing will still download the quick sets anyway.

Quote from farcar :

I'd guess that most people aren't intending to be physics testers while they're racing. I'd say leave that job to the devs and their testers rather than people who are racing each other.

I'd say my comment had nothing at all to do with testing physics.

Quote from farcar :

The benefits are more about eliminating some of the more unrealistic setups from the road cars (and eliminating the need to use them) rather than helping sucky racers.

Yes, I understand the benefits in that respect and was not arguing against that point at all.

voted yes with limitations. all the things available in lfs garage are not available in real racing. most road/race cars have adjustable camber/caster, tyre pressures, and roll bars, thats about it usually. most of the time the controlled series' have pre set shocks and springs, afaik anyway

Locked? oh no no no no no.

Restricted in a realistic manner?, oh yes

There is a MOOOHASIVE difference between locked setups and realistically restricted setup options.

Imho there just isn't such a thing called unrealistic setup. The very basic ideas behind making a setup is to make it as fast as possible with few other points (wear, handling) coming behind that with more or less emphasis. Anything you can do with the setup to make the car go quicker is ok as long as it is result of what you setup inside the sim. There is no book or checklist which says you can't go over 200Nm of preload on the rear diff or use high locking %-s in your setup. Any option that is available is to be used.

Naturally this wide variety of setup options available is not realistic, or more like sensible. But going to limit the setup options to get rid of theunrealistic setups is totally wrong way to try to solve a problem. The problem is in the physics, fix those and you'll see less "unrealistic setups".

Personally I see less setup options in lfs road cars as the natural direction. But if that makes the cars less fun to drive because of the physics limitations and errors then of course the physics need to change as well. And preferrably first.

Also, as for limiting setup options you need to develop a base setup for the car. For the sciroppo this is probably easier than the fictional cars because the sciroppo has all suspension parameters known and even if the suspension model in LFS is different the problem is more of a methematical nature. But then there are the cars like XRT and XFG for which you may have to make a scientific guess for right values because there isn't a real life copy to pick the values from and real life data is hard to come by as well. And it is not just about the spring stiffnesses, it's the whole suspension geometry. When limiting the setup options the suspension geometries should also be looken into, just to make sure there isn't anything causing ill effects like bump steer, or just some things that are not mechanically possible. Also when making the base setups you need to be sure that the car is ready for it. From what I recall, the weight distributions are a bit off along with the turbo modelling and aerodynamics. What is a feature of the car (laggy turbo, lots of rear bias weight) and what is just unfinished feature of the car?

I don't want to make it sound as sometthing hugely complicated simply because it isn't. But the reason why you would make the setups and the adjustability more limited is for more realism and I think it would be a great moment to look at the cars as well and check that data that has gone in, the parameters are all sound and proven before you start finetuning the handling and options which are direct result of the correctness of the values used inside the sim.

Quote from another thread I posted earlier:

Quote from Kegetys :

I think a more simplier system where you would just have pre-made racing classes you can set the server to would be better.

For example, you could have something like:
- Trackday class
- B race class
- A race class
- Professional race class

The class the server is set to would define various parameters for the cars. For example in trackday class you would have the cars at stock specs, and you could do very little settings tweaking (Adjust tire pressures, etc. that are very simple to do in real life). In the race classes you could have an incremential amount of race-performance tuning done to the cars like extra seats etc. removed, engine tweaked for a bit for more power, better tire options and more settings to tweak. In the professional class you could have (almost?) as much settings as you do currently...

Of course, some cars should be restricted to certain classes only, like you couldn't have a BF1 in a trackday class race. Race rules could also become stricter as you go to the higher classes (black flags, no passing on yellows, etc.) and pit stops would become faster due to more crew (The time it currently takes to do a pit stop in a BF1 is rather dumb) Maybe the GTR versions of the XRT etc. could also be "removed" as unique cars, but exist as race tuned versions of them in the higher classes.

Quote from Kegetys :

Quote from another thread I posted earlier:

Didn't see that post before Kegetys, but imo that is an awsome idea and exactly how I'd like to see it it would enable much greater variation in combo as an added bonus Also if you did it that way lfsworld could even track pb's and hl for the different classes

I reckon i said something very similar to that in this very thread maybe not as well put though..

I did along similar lines as well, so we all agree but Kegetys idea handles most peoples concerns in the cleanest way and would fit in with the way LFS and LFSWorld handles things. Which is why it jumped out and hit me in the face

As I've already said in the Scirocco thread, I think setup limiting is something I welcome, and not only for road cars. All road cars' setup options and values should be limited to practically achievable ranges of the unmodified parts. Now I shall contradict myself: I feel it would also be a good idea to provide fixed options for certain parts, like springs. For example 1.5Hz, 1.75Hz and 2Hz. This would allow a) realistic values b) realistic choices c) a more even field and d) something to tweak. Being stuck with only, and only, with the default stock road going setup would be a bloody nightmare

I.e., if the front suspension geometry allows a maximum of 0.2 degrees toe either way, then that's where the limit should be set. On the other hand there's tyre pressures, and maybe some other settings as well, which can be made silly values in RL too, but we don't because it's a bad idea. The lower limit of tyre pressure should be zero, and upper limit the point at which the tyre will explode if more air is pumped into it. Then it's up to the person making the setup to ensure the values are within the operating range (which is something we should be given, since all road tyres have it on them..)

I ticked yes but with limitations.

The reason: For the road cars (uf1, xfg, xrt, fxo..et al) I think things like the fine control we have now should be removed. I am no expert on set ups but use incriments of 10 (e.g. 0, 10, 20) not into hundreth of a degree whether for suspension, arbs or differentials.

For more track/sportier cars (fz50, lx4, lx6 ...et al) should be more adjustable due to the cars they are.

Race cars (FXR, FZR, FOX, BF1 ..et al) Should be almost like they are now but maybe a little less adjustable.

Quote from Kegetys :

Quote from another thread I posted earlier:

To put it bluntly, I think that's an awful idea. Multiple cars with miniscule differencies. And everyone would drive the fastest version anyways. imho the only way that works is to make one good version of each car that is true to it's purpose and all its options and setups should reflect this.

For XRT there should be just one version, the XRT:
-rollcage
-racing seat and seatbelts
-radio and all electronics removed from interior, maybe even the rear seats removed and all other mostly graphical bits
-no change to power/weight/etc from the current model, just make it look like what it actually is

The same goes for XRR, XRG, LX6, LX4 etc. Just one properly made version of each car.

I would feel that I'd been ripped off if this happens.

The only fun I get from these 'road' cars is being able to mess round with the setups and do crazy things.

I paid my license money to be able to play with setups, if that was taken away, I would feel cheated.

One option would be to allow full setup options in single player while having restrictions in multiplayer.

The best solution IMHO wpuld be a server side setting:

Allow full setup
Allow limited setup (more real life increments like from after market products)
Factory setup (only things which don't require a workshop and a mechanic are changable, like tyres and pressure)

Quote from bandaid :

but I am definately leaning towards limited setups as they can be considered more 'realistic' IMHO.

I don't see any reason to turn 'realism' into a fetish like that, but the server side option is without doubt the most sensible way to go.

Quote from farcar :

I'd guess that most people aren't intending to be physics testers while they're racing. I'd say leave that job to the devs and their testers rather than people who are racing each other.

I think there are a number of LFS drivers who are not 'official' testers, and yet who are quite capable of adding a great deal to the development process, discovering things for themselves in the course of racing.

Quote :

The benefits are more about eliminating some of the more unrealistic setups from the road cars

But the unrealistic setups only exist because of physics flaws, indeed it might be true that the unrealistic setups contributed to revealing the physics flaws. To eliminate the very thing that offers a way of improving the simulation seems like a very stupid thing to do.

IMO, I m totally against that idea.
Making setup on road car is as fun as driving it.
A lot of driver love make setup and drive on the set they created.
Making setup is a part of LFS and that why I like this game.
Scirocco is and must stay an exception, that s it.

Quote from southamptonfc :

I would feel that I'd been ripped off if this happens.

The only fun I get from these 'road' cars is being able to mess round with the setups and do crazy things.

I paid my license money to be able to play with setups, if that was taken away, I would feel cheated.

One option would be to allow full setup options in single player while having restrictions in multiplayer.

Couple of points.....

Firstly, if this did happen, there is nothing to stop you continuing using the old version.

Secondly, maybe you should have read the license agreement a bit more carefully....

Quote :

1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

Quote from Gutholz :

Maybe, if they could be a "pro-mode" (current system) and a "basic-mode" with pre-set options like:
front springs:
[ ]very soft =22kN/m
[ ] soft = 30kN/m
[x] hard = 35kN/n
[ ] very hard = 44kN/m
Servers could be set "accept only basic-setups" or "accept all setups."
This way new players might even be encouraged to experiment with setups instead of just downloading them?

And

Quote from ColeusRattus :

The best solution IMHO wpuld be a server side setting:

Allow full setup
Allow limited setup (more real life increments like from after market products)
Factory setup (only things which don't require a workshop and a mechanic are changable, like tyres and pressure)

Both kind of what i meant, but you expliained it better than me!

Quote from Worm :

IMO, I m totally against that idea.
Making setup on road car is as fun as driving it.
A lot of driver love make setup and drive on the set they created.
Making setup is a part of LFS and that why I like this game.
Scirocco is and must stay an exception, that s it.

they dont mean limiting all setups worm, just some things that you wouldnt be able to change, like spring rate (without changing springs) dampers and all that.
i think if we could still play with some stuff to get a small advantage itd be nice as well. although if we limited options, and made it harder to find an advantage, would people still want a 'ss' option online?

Quote from southamptonfc :

I would feel that I'd been ripped off if this happens.

I paid my license money to be able to play with setups, if that was taken away, I would feel cheated.

Quote :

http://www.lfs.net/?page=agreement

1. General
[...]
1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

Too bad


Personally I voted for locked with restrictions. I don't want completely locked setups but they should be restricted to realistic, cartype-appropriate tuning options. Letting the servers choose what to allow is IMO a bad idea, it will just make an even huger mess out of the current setup management.

I generally agree that fully open setup options can help greatly in identifying physics issues, but FFS we know almost every detail about these issues for years now and it's time that LFS stops being a sandbox game and starts becoming a simulator. I'd rather have the physics issues masked by limited setups now than wait another year or two (optimistic guess) for the tyres to be finally fixed.

I think the setups should be limited. The STD class cars, and maybe even TBO and LRF as well are slightly modified road cars and as such wouldn't have as much customisation options as the dedicated track cars like the GTRs and Formula jobs.

I wouldn't mind something like just Short/Medium/Long gearing options with maybe a limit on how much camber can be changed. Tyres can be left as-is because anyone can change them.
I reckon that would even out the field a little.

Quote from Dajmin :

...I wouldn't mind something like just Short/Medium/Long gearing options with maybe a limit on how much camber can be changed...

yea i agree, specially with the gears. make it so you can only change from 3 or 4 final drives or something. not sure about the camber, well not until the tyres are fixed, because atm its not really a great advantage being able to run huge camber - race or hotlapping, they just burn up way too quick.
id leave camber open if it were up to me, for the reason i said above, the advantage you gain (if any), you lose quite soon after

Quote from ColeusRattus :

The best solution IMHO wpuld be a server side setting:

Allow full setup
Allow limited setup (more real life increments like from after market products)
Factory setup (only things which don't require a workshop and a mechanic are changable, like tyres and pressure)

I agree with this.
I do hope, though, that existing leagues and servers will allow for full setupchanges and that the limited setup options will make for exciting new leagues.

Quote from Gunn :

People who suck at racing will still suck at racing, no matter how uniform the setup options are.

Personally I like the level of adjustment we now have, it's one of the interesting aspects of LFS. I really enjoy making sets and tweaking them to the nth degree. Take away the freedom of setup options and another cool part of LFS dies.

That's how I feel about it anyway. The road cars are already a PITA with their $15 tyres, limited setups puts them right out of the game for me. Five less cars to choose from in the garage.

Feel the same way.

But also,

Quote from ColeusRattus :

The best solution IMHO wpuld be a server side setting:

Allow full setup
Allow limited setup (more real life increments like from after market products)
Factory setup (only things which don't require a workshop and a mechanic are changable, like tyres and pressure)

Scirocco and any other real car with some real data, is and should remain the exception for having none or limited setup settings.

Now don’t get me wrong. I also believe that the range (not the available amount of values in that given range) of some settings should be narrower so any values can be close to what you may be able to get IRL.
This applies to gearbox and differential settings mainly. There is no way you can get a clutch pach LSD in a car like XFG with 800ΝΜ preload. That’s for sure. But you can easily lock the diff 100%... this is one of the most inexpensive modifications you can do.
IRL no one restricts you doing this. It’s just that sooner or later, trying to park your car you will snap the axels… also it will be almost impossible to steer in low speeds.
Improving the physics is the key here and not just trying to mask any current flaws.
I am completely against on reducing adjustability in springs rates, arb stiffness and damping. Especially damping is what you can change IRL, revalving a set of dampers to fit your needs without that meaning that your car is prepared for racing use.
You may not be able to give all that specific numeric values of stiffness settings in any car but there are ways to finetune any setting, especially in dampers.
Setup freedom is one of the main reasons many of us started to use this simulator.

As for online racing, I think that it would be good idea give the ability of putting setup restrictions from the server.
This is something like the racing classes we have IRL.
e.g There could be leagues/ events/ races where the use of locked diff or anything more than 200nm of preload is banned.
This could take some time, but there could be given absolute freedom from the server settings to define the exact value ranges of any setup option.
e.g You join a server and go straight to garage where you get informations in the background for the restrictions and/or you see them by the numeric values or slider’s color wile adjusting them. eg gray -> off the limits , black-> in the limits.
This feature though, should be accompanied with the ability from the server to store a number of setups that any player who joins can choose after these are stored to the apropriate player's folder (like skins do). That’s because getting in a server where all your setups are out of the limits would be a nightmare and a definite no-no for racing.
This shouldn’t be hard for bandwidth but it might not be as easy to code.

And if this is impossible... (I doubt)
Do whatever you want with the settings in on line mode. Restrict them to none. I don’t care… I will still enjoy racing. (even if multicar racing will be harder that way)
But please! please! Do not take away all the settings from off line mode.