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Button clutch discussion
(13 posts, started )
"The use of button clutch is not allowed during the events. Drivers shall use auto clutch or, if they use H-shifters, axis clutch. Drivers found to have used the button clutch during the event will be excluded from the session."

I'm asking the same thing as Nova last year. Does this mean that you can manually press the clutch only at the start of the race and when leaving the pit stand. Otherwise you can use manual clutch only if you use a H-shifter too, right? I just want this to be clear as I have now witnessed that some people do use manual clutch even when auto clutch is set to "Yes" and they benefit from it.
Ok, I did not know that before and hear of that now for the first time. The question now is how to monitor it in a different way and I currently doubt there can be a system to monitor it. It is not like an InSim package is sent each time one uses the clutch button, or is it, there is "just" the option to check if button clutch is used in the options or not?
Don't think there is any automatic way to monitor it. But it is clearly visible in the replay so it can be done so that in case someone makes a protest of someone using manual clutch, you just check it from the replay after the event and disqualify that team. As simple as that to me Shrug
Quote from Botswanan Salama :"The use of button clutch is not allowed during the events. Drivers shall use auto clutch or, if they use H-shifters, axis clutch. Drivers found to have used the button clutch during the event will be excluded from the session."

I'm asking the same thing as Nova last year. Does this mean that you can manually press the clutch only at the start of the race and when leaving the pit stand. Otherwise you can use manual clutch only if you use a H-shifter too, right? I just want this to be clear as I have now witnessed that some people do use manual clutch even when auto clutch is set to "Yes" and they benefit from it.

What benefit exactly are you referring to? I've seen people use it too, but I don't believe they are getting a benefit from it so would be interesting to hear.
I guess I'll need to try it myself to be sure. I'm just assuming there is some benefit.. why would anyone do it otherwise? Or is it like honking that some people press button clutch for fun while driving?
If you're revising the rules have a look at banning the use of the handbrake since it's been abused for far to long now in lfs to get a faster lap time or to allow people to throw the car into corners that they would normally run wide for plus since it allows people to use to gain a tighter line if they have missed the apex on turn in.

But i know people will just say why bother since the devs have allowed it to be used this way for so long but i've seen it used in XRR/FZR now and single seater FFS it's just no one see's it as an issue at the moment because it's become so normal to use it now.
Quote from Botswanan Salama :I guess I'll need to try it myself to be sure. I'm just assuming there is some benefit.. why would anyone do it otherwise? Or is it like honking that some people press button clutch for fun while driving?

Can't speak for others of course, but back in 2011 people using clutch on downshifts in XRR was a thing too. But when I tried it, I didn't find it gave me any laptime advantage even though obviously it changes the balance under braking. Sort of like blipping, but more control using the throttle to do this rather than a clutch button.
Quote from IsaacPrice :Can't speak for others of course, but back in 2011 people using clutch on downshifts in XRR was a thing too. But when I tried it, I didn't find it gave me any laptime advantage even though obviously it changes the balance under braking. Sort of like blipping, but more control using the throttle to do this rather than a clutch button.

I have seen it being used also on upshifts, though.. but yeah, I don't have any proof how much it improves your laptime if any. I think it would be still fair that as button clutch is prohibited in the rules, you can't use it at all then (except at the start and pit stops, because people are used to use it at those even though it isn't necessary). No need to start guessing after the race then if someone got illegal advantage of it or not.
Quote from Botswanan Salama :I have seen it being used also on upshifts, though.. but yeah, I don't have any proof how much it improves your laptime if any. I think it would be still fair that as button clutch is prohibited in the rules, you can't use it at all then (except at the start and pit stops, because people are used to use it at those even though it isn't necessary). No need to start guessing after the race then if someone got illegal advantage of it or not.

I did the work for you. I'm adding two video files(sorry for background music), those are clutch timing comparisions between BC and AC, also AC and AC with BC being used, data speaks for itself. :-)
https://www77.zippyshare.com/v/UiI4ovwr/file.html
https://www77.zippyshare.com/v/GHpb9L99/file.html
program used:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1368765#post1368765
Couple notes:
I got no macro's so BC one varies a lot.
as you can notice, pressing clutch while AC is on, makes your clutch engaged same amount of time or slightly longer, which means, it makes upshifts identical, or slower. And for downshifts, there isn't much difference if there's any, maybe as Isaac said, slightly changes car balance, but seeing how little the difference between clutch timings are, it doesn't seem much.
Adding .raf files for anyone who wants to get them into app to compare themselves.
P.S. For me, this is more for trolling purposes than actually gaining an advantage.
Attached files
3.01.07bc.raf - 3.3 MB - 116 views
3.01.13ac.raf - 3.3 MB - 112 views
ACBC.raf - 3.3 MB - 121 views
Quote from Botswanan Salama :"The use of button clutch is not allowed during the events. Drivers shall use auto clutch or, if they use H-shifters, axis clutch. Drivers found to have used the button clutch during the event will be excluded from the session."

I'm asking the same thing as Nova last year. Does this mean that you can manually press the clutch only at the start of the race and when leaving the pit stand. Otherwise you can use manual clutch only if you use a H-shifter too, right? I just want this to be clear as I have now witnessed that some people do use manual clutch even when auto clutch is set to "Yes" and they benefit from it.

Yes, I was asking if when set Auto clutch to Yes, would we still be allowed to press a key assigned to the clutch. This would override the autoclutch as you clutch in before you hit the gear.


Quote from IsaacPrice :Can't speak for others of course, but back in 2011 people using clutch on downshifts in XRR was a thing too. But when I tried it, I didn't find it gave me any laptime advantage even though obviously it changes the balance under braking. Sort of like blipping, but more control using the throttle to do this rather than a clutch button.

For the first question earlier about benefits or why one would go around pressing Clutch, I think its a memory thing. I've raced with BC in lfs since I first started out and its something both my fingers, brain and driving style have grown accustomed to, with using BC. If I were to ditch the manual clutch in and just tap the shift up and down keys with auto clutch, I would lose gear sync and the clutch dies in 4 corners (lol)

Also, you cannot really time the throttle blip on downshifts when you have auto clutch. You will need the gear button, clutch and of course throttle. With auto clutch the clutching is instant along with the gear shift (depending on your button rate), which doesnt leave any clutch on-off where you would usually dump the throttle. Also, with keyboard or mouse controls, we already lose the ability to apply throttle and brake in increments, hence each person would have grown accustomed to his or her own button clutch and shift style and button rate speed, which is why when you put Auto clutch as the rule to follow all it really does is screw everyone who has been racing with BC.

Second question about clutching the XRR - similar to the above, the braking with mouse or kb means theres no axis or as gradual of a control of application. With the xrr being a squirmy car on the rear, on certain ocassions when we feel the rears lock on the brakes and cause axle tramping or skipping on the downshifts, we blip the XRR with clutch to eradicate it. Not saying that's faster, its not. Just that I rather not skid off into the gravel.
This issue all really just stems from the handling model, particularly the rear slip as I've mentioned a few times across several threads.

The way you go fast here is you balance the throttle to let the rear assist the car in pivoting in a slide around the corner to gain laptime. In certain cases especially in quali it's downright dumb when you see an XRR or XRG in a 4 wheel drift and somehow going around the corner quicker just because the tire model promotes rear steer.

This then causes imbalance between the LFS control methods, as with mouse steer, one can make quicker reactions and essentially drive off muscle memory on how the rear pitches in, which am not saying is impossible using wheel, but it is easier on mouse.

Then this is where the "mouse is already quicker, rule out Button Clutch to slow them down" comes in. Yes, mouse is quicker in some cases, but when you don't have brake and throttle axis application it evens everything out already.

This shambles could all be resolved when someone realises cars don't go around corners in a skid to go quicker (yes, in some cases IRL like BTCC, but in lfs its exaggerated way too much). When the handling model promotes more realistic "by the book" handling then the mousers would lose the advantage they have in terms of agility to manipulate the rear, and hence Button Clutch would not be as much of an advantage, perhaps even giving back what the mouse/kb users have now lost.
Quote from Excellent15 :quote

Thanks for thorough investigation and explanation Thumbs up

p.s. I didn't start own thread for this but I think it was a good decision from Falke to move these posts here from the rules section as the discussion spread this wide. My original intention was only to make it clear what is allowed and what is not as the rule is currently pretty vague, but I'm sure Mr. Falke can now make a decision and polish the rulebook based on the discussion in this thread.
Yeah, this topic kind of grew to big for the rules thread Wink

Quote from Excellent15 :I did the work for you. I'm adding two video files(sorry for background music), those are clutch timing comparisions between BC and AC, also AC and AC with BC being used, data speaks for itself. :-)
https://www77.zippyshare.com/v/UiI4ovwr/file.html
https://www77.zippyshare.com/v/GHpb9L99/file.html
program used:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1368765#post1368765
Couple notes:
I got no macro's so BC one varies a lot.
as you can notice, pressing clutch while AC is on, makes your clutch engaged same amount of time or slightly longer, which means, it makes upshifts identical, or slower. And for downshifts, there isn't much difference if there's any, maybe as Isaac said, slightly changes car balance, but seeing how little the difference between clutch timings are, it doesn't seem much.
Adding .raf files for anyone who wants to get them into app to compare themselves.
P.S. For me, this is more for trolling purposes than actually gaining an advantage.

Thank you very much! This is very helpful. Only the video files don't seem to work for me (403: forbidden).
Just to get this right: the conclusion is, the mandatory auto-clutch does not help the situation, it takes the same time or a just slightly longer but does not limit it to the time Auto-clutch would take.

One appeal of the "use auto-clutch" rule was, that it presented itself as an easy solution and was easy to monitor.

Button clutch discussion
(13 posts, started )
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