The online racing simulator
TEST PATCH 0.6H2 (now H11)
(391 posts, closed, started )
Hold on for some years more..

Quote from Scawen :But how long? Think years, not months ... as I say, it's not relevant now. We have to get to S3.

I installed this test patch and now whenever I try to select westhill as a track, I get a "Obsolete track" message. Anyone know what's the issue?
Did you install 0.6H before (so you have the new Westhill on your computer) or upgrade from 0.6G (old Westhill).
I'm sure I did, because I remember testing it out. My WE.lgh has 69 915 kB and is last modified at 28. 3. 2015.
It seems that is one from testing, not the final one.

I think you should do a manual patch from here to fix it.
https://www.lfs.net/patch-6h
Thank you, it works now. (I really should have thought of that myself :schwitzSmile
There's a collision problem with the Westill track or the game in general, when you're falling from a height
If this isn't already related to other graphical bugs of H2 - I noticed race line (the "rubbered in" part) flickering on curbs,well at least in Westhill. When car goes over parts of the race line (it seems like being divided in some sectors),it dissapears and that from any view. In stable version there isn't such issue.
Quote from numbazZ :There's a collision problem with the Westill track or the game in general, when you're falling from a height

Its general.
When you fall on the ground with high speed , you might fall throught the ground.
After some hours playing 0.6H2, I have too say that the game has some serious clipping issues since 0.6H.
For example, with FBM, I can see some part of track (especially Westhill) pop in front of me, and when I create a custom camera with max height (camera on roof), I can see clipping everywhere. Frown
Quote from Flotch :...
edit:
I still got some weird drop of framerate (using Vsync with a 60Hz monitor) when at some places in WE ...
only noticed with external camera.

I forgot to perform the test without VSync enabled, and this release of H3 made me remember to do the test :
fps are lowering slightly in the part where I (often) got the 'drop' (when starting a spr replay on WE5R with ext. cam., after the second corner (before the lap is started)) without VSync (like going 166 while it was 200 before),
but when it is with VSync enabled, fps are going from 60 to ~30 ... Confused
Attached images
lfs_00000029WithoutVSync.jpg
lfs_00000030_Vsync.jpg
When I limit FPS or Vsync my graphics card goes into power save mode by halving core clock / memory clock.

So that maybe is why you see a bigger frame rate drop in Vsync mode then when you are in unlimited FPS mode.
I do not see any parameter going in that way ... but I am not expert.
The board is an amd radeon 7950.
Quote from Flotch :I do not see any parameter going in that way ... but I am not expert.
The board is an amd radeon 7950.

On that note, I have to say that I couldn't figure out how to set my AMD GPU to full-power mode. Using standard AMD driver control panel or windows config whatever I do it drops to 300 MHz occasionally (having low gpu load and pretty low temperature like 50 celsius), so those FPS drops are hard to test for me.

I heard of people forcing the card to go on full power by using some overclocking software, but I never had a go with it.
Quote from Flotch :I do not see any parameter going in that way ... but I am not expert.
The board is an amd radeon 7950.

And how do you monitor that? GPU-Z shows your core clock speed and lots of other data.
Quote from cargame.nl :When I limit FPS or Vsync my graphics card goes into power save mode by halving core clock / memory clock.

I can't confirm this. Opened a 0.6H3 LFS in a window and monitored my GPU core clock and memory clock while I was playing with the FPS-limiter and V-Sync. None of them lowered my clocks.
(Im using some great gadgets to monitor all these, see addgadgets.com)
Note: the vertical sync option doesn't have any effect while you are in a window.

I don't know much about this thing about graphics cards going into power saving mode, but it would be sensible for manufacturers to allow users to disable that feature.
Quote from cargame.nl :
Quote from Flotch :I do not see any parameter going in that way ... but I am not expert.
The board is an amd radeon 7950.

And how do you monitor that? GPU-Z shows your core clock speed and lots of other data.

What I mean, is that I did not find an option speaking about power saving.

I saw in the catalyst stuff lots of things about overclocking the proc of the gpu, maybe it could have an impact like vitaly_m said, but never touched to this ! And not planning to Wink . If disabling VSync is good workaround, I see no problem using this.
I will do the test in windowed mode in aim to check the cpu usage of the gpu if the issue is reproducing as easily as yesterday evening.
Quote from Scawen :
I don't know much about this thing about graphics cards going into power saving mode, but it would be sensible for manufacturers to allow users to disable that feature.

There is... At least @Nvidia... Setting can be switched from adaptive to "always use optimized". But, then I end up with a machine producing a lot of unwanted heat and noise. What I did was boosting the power saving state a little bit so that LFS can easily stick with the 100 FPS limit which I configured at LFS.

This is all my personal situation, the only thing is that if people make a report about low FPS in certain modes that they actually also monitor what their graphics card / drivers are doing. And their CPU... When the CPU core maxes out, FPS also drops massively (and/or produces very annoying screen lag while the FPS indicator keeps reporting a reasonable number).
I got fps improvements, but still drop in points I mentioned before (in printscreen). for some reason I dont have full-scene antialiasing and mirror antialiasing in options. previously i modify the values in cfg.txt for this reason.
Attached images
fps drop.jpg
options.jpg
Quote from Abone :I got fps improvements, but still drop in points I mentioned before (in printscreen). for some reason I dont have full-scene antialiasing and mirror antialiasing in options. previously i modify the values in cfg.txt for this reason.

I get a frame rate drop at those same three places. Normally it doesn't affect things but for example in the Rift it will drop below 75 fps and that means stuttering.

I've written it down to take a close look if there's anything strange / buggy going on there. But it may not turn out to be anything really strange... a lot of scenery can be seen from those locations.

Those missing antialiasing functions... strange. In the code I see this means the D3D function "CheckDeviceMultiSampleType" is not indicating that there are any valid AA settings. When you set it in cfg.txt does it have any effect? Do you remember a version which did have these settings available in the options screen?

Quote from cargame.nl :Yes, this; https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1887346#post1887346

Exactly what I keep repeating... "modern" CPU's which are not properly utilized.

Well... in a sense they are not properly utilized... if you mean that LFS isn't taking advantage of multiple cores? I'd like to do physics and graphics on separate threads at some point, but it's a big restructure and is some way down the (imaginary) priority list.

On the other hand if we accept that this is a single thread program for now, it does seem that a lot of CPU is used at some points and this can use all available CPU power, so limiting the frame rate without fully loading the GPU. Seems to be related to the large number of objects at Westhill and LFS doesn't yet have the optimisations to deal with that. I'll have that closer look again at those specific places.

In your case, is there any noticeable change from H to H2 / H2 to H3 or does it all seem much the same?
Reading some of these recent posts about CPU/GPU utilisation, fps and vsync reminds me that I've been meaning for weeks to post about my recent observations on this, but I've been wanting to do some more testing first.

I'm not at the right PC now so can't provide full details, so I'll just state the basics, which may be relevant to this topic.

I got a big surprise after upgrading my CPU recently. It was coping really well with most tracks and I decided I didn't want to heat up my bedroom needlessly (!!) by having both the CPU and GPU running flat out and getting stupidly high fps (like 300). Thus, I decided to limit the frame rate (I had been running without any limit). I tried various rates, settling on 50ish fps and found I had massively reduced the wall-plug power consumption (IIRC, a ~100W drop!). Yay. I then decided to try vsync to see if I could spot the difference (absence of tearing) and indeed I could so I left vsync on.
A bit later I got the big surprise: I realised that when vsync was ON, the CPU was absolutely flat-out on the LFS thread. Bit of a WTF moment... I checked the power consumption and sure enough, it was stupidly high with vsync at 60 fps, and massively lower with frame rate SET to 62 fps (which gave me an actual fps of 60ish). I'm driving w/o vsync now Wink

My planned-for testing was meant to work out if old versions of LFS did this (I was running H or maybe H2), and get some hard numbers on it, but that's the basic story already. I checked some older threads here, which had some mention of fps and vsync, but nobody observed what I've just mentioned (at least not that I found).

A quick bit of googling gave me some hints that vsync may be implicitly causing a busy wait (either in a game or the video driver), which seems a bit faily really but maybe there's just no better way, which would be tragic. If there is a better way, then perhaps LFS could use it. Or maybe my rig is just odd? (Win XP.)

NB: in the cases above, if thermal throttling does ever rear its head, it's more likely to happen with vsync on I guess (that's throttling on the CPU, not the GPU).
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(Abone) DELETED by Abone
Quote from Scawen :
Quote from Abone :I got fps improvements, but still drop in points I mentioned before (in printscreen). for some reason I dont have full-scene antialiasing and mirror antialiasing in options. previously i modify the values in cfg.txt for this reason.

I get a frame rate drop at those same three places. Normally it doesn't affect things but for example in the Rift it will drop below 75 fps and that means stuttering.

I've written it down to take a close look if there's anything strange / buggy going on there. But it may not turn out to be anything really strange... a lot of scenery can be seen from those locations.

Those missing antialiasing functions... strange. In the code I see this means the D3D function "CheckDeviceMultiSampleType" is not indicating that there are any valid AA settings. When you set it in cfg.txt does it have any effect? Do you remember a version which did have these settings available in the options screen?

Quote from cargame.nl :Yes, this; https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1887346#post1887346

Exactly what I keep repeating... "modern" CPU's which are not properly utilized.

Well... in a sense they are not properly utilized... if you mean that LFS isn't taking advantage of multiple cores? I'd like to do physics and graphics on separate threads at some point, but it's a big restructure and is some way down the (imaginary) priority list.

On the other hand if we accept that this is a single thread program for now, it does seem that a lot of CPU is used at some points and this can use all available CPU power, so limiting the frame rate without fully loading the GPU. Seems to be related to the large number of objects at Westhill and LFS doesn't yet have the optimisations to deal with that. I'll have that closer look again at those specific places.

In your case, is there any noticeable change from H to H2 / H2 to H3 or does it all seem much the same?

cfg.txt works, but the difference between 0 and x8 is very small. I installed again 0.6E, 0.6F, 0.6G, and i dont have any antialiasing functions.. i really dont understand why.

note: improvements 6H to H3, dont see any difference in H2
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TEST PATCH 0.6H2 (now H11)
(391 posts, closed, started )
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