That's a hard statement to defend. Just load up the default setup in the RX7 thingy, LX6, RAC, FZ50, F0X, or F08 and tule around Blackwood. If you are not getting neutral throttle oversteer with minumum steering angle at realistic speeds, then I want to know exactly what you are using. Mobo, chip, brand of memory, monitor and wheel.
That being said. Setups are getting to the point now that the cars can be driven very, VERY realistically.
The default setups in LFS has nothing to do the default setups IRL cars. I bet that all the normal cars have quite "easy to drive setups". The default setups in LFS are there for only becaus all of the paramters must have some default values.
Thought I'd take you up on that - here are the replays, all done with the default setup, (I don't know what you mean by RX7 thingy - obviously some incranation of the XR car, but which one? - so I haven't done a lap in that). There are some obvious setup changes that need to be done - first and fore-most the brakes on the FZ50... jeesh, I was going crazy trying to keep the rear behind me in that thing under braking, but it was fine in the corners... maybe a bit on the tail-happy side. Softening the rear roll-bar or stiffening the front would help too, but I would go with the stiffer front first because it mainly oversteers in the chicane and that feels like it is because the car rolls around too much. Maybe stiffen both but the front a bit more than the rear. You could also try softening the rear tyres a bit. The diff on the Raceabout needs some tweaking - the thing just lets go very quickly under power after a certain point but before that it is fairly understeery so I would suggest a greater power locking factor. Also the rear toe in on the Raceabout needs to be increased - the thing weaves down the straight. Also the rear looses grip over the smallest bump, so I couldn't use full throtle when comming down the hill to cross the s/f line. The rear suspension could use a few tweaks. The LX6 was well behaved IMO. Other than that, the formula cars were UNDERsteering like crazy - I have no idea where you found oversteer in those. Bear in mind that I was not driving very fast - this is one of my first laps of BL1 in the FZ50, RAC and LX6. I have driven the FO8 a bit, but no more than 20 laps and the same goes for the FOX. Regarding the road cars in there (FZ50, RAC, LX6), if I took my everyday ride to a track, I wouldn't expect them to handle any better than they did. Maybe a bit more understeer in the FZ50 but the other two were fine. These are default road setups, not default racing setups. On the road you find a lot more bumps and you don't usually want to keep your foot in it over them, just glide over them comfortably. The two racing cars were EASY to drive and those felt like default racing setups - medium downforce, understeer, good brakes. A nice base for your track-specific race setup. These are the tweaks that I would recommend for the default setups. Perhaps they will be sorted out in a future version, but for now you can give this a try. Also, I don't really see the poorish default setups on these cars any problem. The slower ones have easy-to-drive default setups, and by the time you have moved on to driving these you should know a thing or two about setups...
Well, I watched the replays but noticed that you certainly are not afflicted with "the problem". So I decided to make some replays of my own to demonstrate the problem I was trying to describe. My main complaint was with this:
"it is nothing that affects a race at racing speeds..."
I believed there is a problem at speed. So I was to make a replay of what I've been calling "neutral throttle oversteer at realistic speeds with realistic steering input".
Nothing. Buppkiss. The defualt and race1 setups work great. They handle as you describe. Not perfect, but no NTOARSWRSI. Now I'm freaking out.
I know I had the problem in S2. I know a lot of others complained about the same thing. I know others are complaining of it right now. I also know that I can perform in a testing manner, in other words, precise throttle, brake, and steering control, no matter how new I am to a sim. I know I've gotten better at setting up cars in LFS and haven't had a problem in a while. I assumed it was setup and driving style. But I know it was so severe that it should be easy to recreate. No luck. So where did it go?
Well, what has changed besides my ability to read LFS in the time I've been driving S2? Uh... just about everything. Almost all of my OPTIONS have changed. For a moment I considered going through all of them to try to troubleshoot the problem. But LFS is just the way I like it and I don't want to lose what I have. Also, I am very pressed for time. The way I set up my controller in windows has changed, and how I set it up in LFS.
I reset my controller in a few different ways. At one point for two turns the car started acting like it had NTOARSWRSI. But then sorted itself out on the same lap. ?? I have not been able to replicate the problem. Could it be an interface thing?
That being said I prefer softer front, stiffer rear cars. But what I thought I was refering to had little to do with reasonable setups. It was a real, severe, undrivable, NTOARSWRSI thing. I've been hopping in and out of sims long enough to know when it's not me. At the time I stopped having problems, too much was going on for me to pinpoint it from memory.
If anyone has the box stock cfg.txt, I wouldn't mind trying it to see if I can figure out why I think I'm losing my mind.
There is another problem that I have with the grip that I can demonstrate and recreate, but it's not "ice on the tires" so I'll leave that for now.
What I found was that in S1 I sturggled with these problems most definately... Very severely. I could drive only the XR GT and the XF GTi. But in S2, everything clicked and I got this mad throttle control from nowhere. I think its a case of S2 having more informative feedback and pointing out your mistakes very quickly compared to S1. In S1, only people who had the throttle control from another sim or real life managed. S2 is a lot better in that department. About the settings - if you just remove the .cfg file or place it in another folder, LFS changes to default settings. If you are on a logitech wheel DO NOT use any other value than 100% for the force in the windows settings - it creates a horrible wobble effect. Use something like 25%-60% FF in LFS depending on what car you are driving. The other settings, I haven't even touched. All the axis in the profiler are 50% sensitivity, 0% dead zone, 100% range. The LFS settings are defaults too, other than the FF I think.
It could simply be that you have put more wheel hours in now so that you are able to read and understand what LFS is telling you and so any issues you did have have been compensated for or your driving style has adapted enough to deal with it now.
As for reasonable setups, this has a big factor because people have started to learn how to set up the cars better. Bob's setups are great and I think should be included in LFS as the defaults. The easy race and road sets would help people learning the sim.
There is an idea - multiple default setups, allowing people to learn the effects that setup changes have on a car and therefore allowing them to progress in that field
It's freaking me out. That is the first thing I thought. I went to Blackwood because I had a huge problem with NTOARSWRSI at turn 4. (If the whole chicken is turn two.) I tested there a lot. To verify to myself that there was a problem. When I'd test it was, wheels on the black stuff the whole time, consistent speed to one mph from turn three, steering angle checked by using the wheel view. The things would spin at turn in.
The first thing I noticed today was that I countersteer and modulate the throttle and brakes a lot based on where I am on what track. So, yes. I have learned a lot about LFS. It took a concerted effort to simply go 67mph (let's say) on the spot without lifting or throttling up when I felt the need. I tried steering at several different angles from too little to too much. I am very consistant and have learned how to test a sim for persnality. I've also been driving LFS since the first demo days. I have always, and today did run a legitimate test. Nothing.
Ah well, when I get the time I'll load that cfg.txt that a kind soul sent me.
PS, all my setups are based on either Bob's or RmachucaA's set. Brilliant, those two.
Very, very bad. I didn't have time to test it, don't know when I will. I do intend to go through it one by one. But it might be a while. I'm starting to think that those who are complaining probably have some sort of controller issue.
Athlon XP 1600+ at 1.4gig, MSI K7T266 Pro2 (non raid) pure VIA chipset, 768MB ram (is it pc2100? Anyway, it's matched to the motherboard at 266mhz), Windows XP Home 5.1 build 2600 SP2, DirectX 9.0c, ATI Radeon 9600XT AGP 128mb DDR, Creative SB PCI 512, Creative Modem Blaster V.92 PCI DI 5633, TSW Sport with *analog* controller plugged into the mobo. (XP absolutely hates the analog controller.)
Could be pure and simple framerate or changing framerate. I find I drive better the stable framerate. Also the faster the rate the slower and smother everything feels so the more natural it feels. Lets you read weight thransfer better etc.
I have mine locked at 40fps as I play on a laptop and while it will turn in higher it will bounce around. 40 gives me a solid fps.
NTOARSWRSI is just me abreviating myself after post #107. Neutral throttle oversteer at realistic speeds with realistic steering input.
I do have my frame rate capped at 40 and I have the reduce detail functions on. (I think it's funny when the farthest cars in front of me are just blocks at the start of populated races.) GFX and controller options are the first things I am going to check when I get more than ten minutes, as I have both a slowish computer and archaic controller interface.
Well... I went and did some testing this morning and came up with almost nothing.
By loading the original cfg.txt I got cars that suffered from Sudden Unexpected Oversteer at all turn phases except NTOARSWRSI. So now I have to wonder if that was an S1 thing that I confused with S2 by not paying careful attention after starting to use S2.
I think the Sudden Unexpected Oversteer Syndrome may be mostly GUI realated and cumulative to a number of settings, but have some suspects that are high on the list. At least when considering my personal machine/driving style/occular disposition.
I started out by driving the FOX on Fern Bay Club because it is short and it yeilds the problems I was having. I used my test setup because it's crazy stable, predictable, and I know it inside and out. I ran there using mycfg.txt until I attained *consistent meandering* laps. I then loaded the originalcfg.txt and calibrated, locked, and changed wheel turn compensation. None of these adjustments made any change to the way the car handled and it still suffered from SUOS.
How did the car handle? It seemed heavier, did not respond quickly, was later than I expected in every aspect. The front took longer to set and reading grip front and rear was compromised. The rear would come away after it seemed to be set.
I changed Limit Frame Rate to 40. No effect. Then, back to the same page and because I am starting to think this is a GUI problem, changed Sound Lag from the default 20ms to 10ms. Something definately changed. The car was about 50% less evil in mid to late corner oversteer. How could this be? While we can hear 10ms delays, is our right foot/thought process/computer latency so sensitive that 10ms makes that much of a difference to our control factor? I changed the setting to 30ms. No difference in how the car reacted. But overall, a major improvment in the drive by adjusting Sound Lag. ? I changed it back to 20. From time to time the car would act poorly but not always.
I reloaded mycfg drove a lap then reloaded originalcfg.
Right back where I started. Again, controller and frame rate adjustments. Car was bad again suffering from SUOS. This time I didn't touch Sound Lag but went straight for Field of View and changed it to what I am used to. That cured a good amount of my timing problems and the car lost a good 60% of it's non responsive personality, but still, definitely suffered from the same traits. I adjusted Sound Lag again and got a noticable improvment in SUOS.
At this point I was recording in hotlap mode thinking that my Options screen adjustments would be recorded. I was wrong and did not write down what I was doing. But it was something like this:
I do not use FF. Turning Force Strength to 0 from 80 made a noticable difference in SUOS. Changing Minimum Sleep from 1 to 3 may or may not have made a difference. Calibration Lock and Remove Deadzone made no noticable difference. Because I don't use FF I turned the engine sound down and the tire sounds all the way up. Made the car easier to handle, but it still suffered. Not as much as orginally. Driver wheel on and off, no difference.
At this point I'm not sure if any of the changes I've made are actually changing my ability to drive LFS or if I'm getting used to driving it in this manner. I change everthing back and it gets better in the SUOS area but is worse in my ability to understand what's going on. What? It's better with everything back to original? Is it a matter of flicking things on and off, or is it all in the GUI and my interpretation?
I reload mycfg run lap, then reload originalcfg. Now this time I'm positive the car is better. Even with all the defaults. Are there other settings in the game that are changed through the cfg.txt, but not ultimately controlled by the cfg.txt that are not changing? A few more reloads of this nature and each time the car is more and more consistently like it is in mycfg.
I give up. I know for a fact that with the original cfg this morning the car was goofy. I did not nail it down to one setting like I had hoped to, and it is significantly better after me futtzing with it for a couple of hours. I'm not sure it's entirely GUI related. The Sound Lag switching has me wondering about things I can't wonder. Like, does my personal computer need to be tricked into resourcing the game correctly? I don't know these things.
As fate would have it. A couple of the GURU drivers have been working on a subjective guide to the Options screen that should help a lot with any problems GUI related.
My cfg is working fine, so while I don't have any answers, I am having the time of my life with LFS. That counts for something, eh?
Errrr.... what was that post all about? I find the cars more difficult to drive with low FPS, but I don't think any singular option makes any difference, you're not changing the physics after all.
I can race nearly as well with the sound muted, since I primarily drive through the FFB anyway, but hearing tyre noises certainly helps.
There are people complaining about soap on the track, or unexpected oversteer. I was one of them until a few months ago, at which time, I had been changing so much on a daily basis I couldn't say what the changes were that made LFS work correctly for me.
Out of curiosity I loaded up the original cfg.txt file and used a setup that I know is very, very good and drove a track that I have "wired". The original cfg.txt brought the evil handling car back immediately. This morning I thought I would troubleshoot it by adjusting settings, one at a time, back to the way my cfg is now until I clicked the one that is causing the unexpected loss of traction.
No luck. The game seemed to keep improving throughout the session, almost regardless of cfg settings. Before you say I'm nuts, this morning I guarantee the problem was there. The cure seems to be illusive and dynamic. The point is though, that yes, somehow the physics are dynamic. Or, the perception of what's happening leads to reactions from the driver that become unpredictable. My goal was to prove it was in the contoller setup as I am using an analog controller input in XP. I figured that was a likely suspect. Not so though...
Do you consider 40fps low? I'd love to have more, but I'm on an older machine.
I wish there were rewind or clip in the replay. It's a pain to foward to try to analyze a single common event in several long replays.
A solid 40 is fine, 80 would feel even more fluid and even faster more so.
The real key with framerate is that it remains solid. It can be hard to detect the difference between say 40 and 50 fps but its very easy to detect something bouncing between 30 and 40 all the time. The fluctuation will effect many things probably including physics rate.
I think the key with a sim like LFS in the end though really is milage behind the wheel. FFB also helps a huge amount as the LFS FFB really does communicates a great deal of info about the car and where the weight is located without all that fake effect shite that appears on so many other games/sims.
I recently, for my sins , purchased rFactor. Coming from LFS I found it felt dead and lifeless and the FF washed out and weak even on max settings. As a result I find it hard to know what state the car is in at any given time so I crash or take corners far too slow. It might be that if I put more hours in it will feel better to me. I get the feeling this is the same thing people go through starting LFS, it really is a massive learning curve for a sim of this level its just that I have put so many hours and miles into LFS now that I know what it is telling me.
For your cfg, do you tweak the FOV setting. I think the default is high. I run about 65 now and its far more natural than the warping effects that a high FOV like 80+ will give you.
I do tweak FOV, that was one of my first suspects because it affects my control timing so much. Unfortunately, it didn't have as great an effect on the spinning problem as I'd hoped.
I looked at the replay this morning because this is bugging the crap out of me. All four wheels just suddenly lose grip in a place, that makes sense on a physical level, but that really is no problem to drive through with my current cfg. I need to figure out how to use the telemetry program.
, purchased rFactor. Coming from LFS I found it felt dead and lifeless and the FF washed out and weak even on max settings. As a result I find it hard to know what state the car is in at any given time so I crash or take corners far too slow. It might be that if I put more hours in it will feel better to me. I get the feeling this is the same thing people go through starting LFS, it really is a massive learning curve for a sim of this level its just that I have put so many hours and miles into LFS now that I know what it is telling me.