The online racing simulator
[Merged] Discussion regarding LFS development
(1577 posts, started )
Quote from Mountaindewzilla :
...
Most
people complain or beg.
...
Everything worth saying on this topic has been said. Correct me if I'm wrong.

100% agreement. I think we found a common ground now Mountaindewzilla
Quote from NunoMike :rFactor 2 is probably released in late 2011, most likely in early 2012...
GTR 3 are teasing people with more news...
C.A.R.S. is evolving at cruise control speed...

LFS is... stuck.

And with this titles coming out, the interest for LFS will go down even more than it is right now...

I believe one of two things will happen:

- next release will be the last and final LFS release;
- 0.6b will be considered sooner or later the final LFS release;

An S3 car was promised along with Rockingham, so (luckily?) they're not done with it yet.

Quote from rockclan :Guys please stop moaning about Scawen, he hasn't done anything wrong! All he is trying to do is to please you guys with a fantastic tyre physics.

And I guess what the REAL problem is, is that Eric didn't finish the S3 content yet!

And that he does it at a slow pace, and maybe HE lost interest in LFS.

If he lost his interest in LFS they would've gotten someone else to do it. The only reason for everyone bragging is the very one Eric made his infamous rage post about.



An update/teaser/test patch every month or so would be more than enough, but I guess there's nothing to make an update about, at least right now.
funny, in the three years working on the new physic engine people are ask to do a whole bachelor study. I'm not saying the devs are slow, but I am.
Quote from hp999 :An S3 car was promised along with Rockingham, so (luckily?) they're not done with it yet.

Yeah, I know they have, but even though people mentioned the fact that the new physics engine does not influence the release of new content, as Rockingham, the car and other stuff that they could have released by now, and even though Scawen him self agreed with that and confessed that was something he didn't think of but would take in consideration for the future...

Well, this happened last January, I believe, and until now...

And there is another thing we probably are forgetting: does Scavier STILL have the license for use of the Scirocco and Rockingham? I don't know how these contracts work but if you don't do something until day X, do you still have the consent to use that? If you are not using, why have the permission and image rights?
Quote from NunoMike :And there is another thing we probably are forgetting: does Scavier STILL have the license for use of the Scirocco and Rockingham? I don't know how these contracts work but if you don't do something until day X, do you still have the consent to use that? If you are not using, why have the permission and image rights?

I beliveve they do. Rockingham is running on PC's at the real Rockingham and the Scirocco was used at Games Convention a couple of years ago, so I guess the devs have fulfilled the fact that it has to be done until X. My opinion.
Quote from Rappa Z :I know we used to jokingly say that the Scirocco was a lie/myth but thats all it is to me now. I'm sure the devs are still working hard, but by the time things get released I imagine I will have moved on with my life, like many LFSers sadly have. Jeez, I remember playing LFS six years ago (back when the community was expanding very rapidly and even public racing was filled with life) and thinking about how far LFS could go but, honestly, I think many aspects of the community have been going backwards for some time.

I fear that my time with LFS will soon be coming to a close as well (have to grow up some day) and I just feel like its a damned shame that LFS is only where it is today.

This. Majorly this.

Thankfully I've had a couple of years out of LFS and I'll probs get a bit back into it soon, so hopefully I'll be around for a bit longer
Quote from Rappa Z :I know we used to jokingly say that the Scirocco was a lie/myth but thats all it is to me now. I'm sure the devs are still working hard, but by the time things get released I imagine I will have moved on with my life, like many LFSers sadly have. Jeez, I remember playing LFS six years ago (back when the community was expanding very rapidly and even public racing was filled with life) and thinking about how far LFS could go but, honestly, I think many aspects of the community have been going backwards for some time.

I fear that my time with LFS will soon be coming to a close as well (have to grow up some day) and I just feel like its a damned shame that LFS is only where it is today.

+1

...my signature was meant as a joke at first, but after some years I think it's safe to say it was a lie...

Luckily atm there are plenty of interesting racing sim projects going on out there. Good times for a new orientation!
Dev's, any new progress preport, pls?
Quote from NunoMike :And there is another thing we probably are forgetting: does Scavier STILL have the license for use of the Scirocco and Rockingham? I don't know how these contracts work but if you don't do something until day X, do you still have the consent to use that? If you are not using, why have the permission and image rights?

Quite sure they do, otherwise both the Scirocco and Rockingham would be available for a limited amount of time.
I think we'll get one when there's been some progress to report
I also agree actually that content can be released as it is. (VWS, Rockingham & ??)

And than later the rest could come.

Release it as a new version, let people pay for it, let them get excited!

Let new activity come to LFS, as there where people who bought S2 with the promise of VWS coming soon, and they bought it for that reason.


Now when Patch Z25 was released, I can remember something in the message like:

"And we'll do our best to get the Volkswagen Scirocco and the new tyre physics to you as soon as possible"

However, that is more kind of a lie.

It seems that LFS Devs are now working on a full S3 package, with lots of new things.

On one side this is great, but on the other side, they did not full fill their promise, which brought the community to a new low.

I think that all we need is a complete new track & car, in some sort of open beta, until S3 comes out.

This to keep people interested, and giving a positive look.
Quote from hp999 :Quite sure they do, otherwise both the Scirocco and Rockingham would be available for a limited amount of time.

Whatever the replacement for the Scirocco will be out before the existing Scirocco is out.

99% of people would have been happy with the 'Rocco at Christmas as promised, even if the physics were not 100% or that the ESP didn't work exactly. My car has the same ESP settings as the Scirocco and it works exactly like any other one, minus wheel angle sensors and that stuff - nothing which a regular TC system like the one in the FZ5 wouldn't have done and in practise, probably an end user wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

People say they are sure the Devs are working hard - are they really? What is their situation; are they actively working on LFS on a 9-5 basis? Do they have other jobs and careers and work on LFS in their spare time? Or are they even doing anything? No updates in a long time, the car promised 2 years ago which was never brought out with nothing more than a "it has been delayed sorry". They made Forza 4 in almost as much time as the last tangible update...

You only have to have a look at the Automotive (or whatever it's called) thread to see how people respond when they are provided updates, when there is interaction between the user base and the development team. It's a very positive thread, unlike the stone-walled silence approach of the LFS devs.

Now if the devs are working on S3 then why hasn't his been told? There's a rule of how you deal with customers, if there are delays and you let them know, a few may be upset but most will understand. If you don't tell anyone anything then people will get pissed off.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Whatever the replacement for the Scirocco will be out before the existing Scirocco is out.

So?
Quote from S14 DRIFT :99% of people would have been happy with the 'Rocco at Christmas as promised, even if the physics were not 100% or that the ESP didn't work exactly. My car has the same ESP settings as the Scirocco and it works exactly like any other one, minus wheel angle sensors and that stuff - nothing which a regular TC system like the one in the FZ5 wouldn't have done and in practise, probably an end user wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

99% of people might have been, but the devs wouldn't have been, and they are in charge. Tough luck.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :People say they are sure the Devs are working hard - are they really? What is their situation; are they actively working on LFS on a 9-5 basis? Do they have other jobs and careers and work on LFS in their spare time? Or are they even doing anything? No updates in a long time, the car promised 2 years ago which was never brought out with nothing more than a "it has been delayed sorry". They made Forza 4 in almost as much time as the last tangible update...

Maybe they do have other jobs or other projects. Maybe LFS will become one of those sims that's developed after hours as a bit of a hobby. Maybe that will be the key to it's success or the reason for it's downfall. Conjecture, with no right answers yet.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :
You only have to have a look at the Automotive (or whatever it's called) thread to see how people respond when they are provided updates, when there is interaction between the user base and the development team. It's a very positive thread, unlike the stone-walled silence approach of the LFS devs.

The devs used to communicate a lot. Then LFS got popular and they started getting a lot of flak from doing what they'd always done. Rather than fight fire with fire, they put up a wall and stayed behind it. Can't say I blame them. Your post won't help that.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :
Now if the devs are working on S3 then why hasn't his been told? There's a rule of how you deal with customers, if there are delays and you let them know, a few may be upset but most will understand. If you don't tell anyone anything then people will get pissed off.

There is no rule. Anyone can interact with customers how they please. You don't like the current way the devs are working because it doesn't suit YOU. They don't have to tell anyone about delays, progress or future plans. When they do, it gets mocked or blown out of all proportion.

If S3 never comes, or LFS never gets updated again (both of which I believe to be false) then nobody has really lost anything. It just means that that netKar Pro has less competition as the best simulator out there.
I have merged 3 threads about LFS development & progress reports into this one.
Quote from tristancliffe :So?

So nothing.

Quote :99% of people might have been, but the devs wouldn't have been, and they are in charge. Tough luck.

Again, so?

Quote :Maybe they do have other jobs or other projects. Maybe LFS will become one of those sims that's developed after hours as a bit of a hobby. Maybe that will be the key to it's success or the reason for it's downfall. Conjecture, with no right answers yet.

Because the userbase does not know what is going on with a project in which they invested (bought a license) and what to play.
Quote :The devs used to communicate a lot. Then LFS got popular and they started getting a lot of flak from doing what they'd always done. Rather than fight fire with fire, they put up a wall and stayed behind it. Can't say I blame them. Your post won't help that.

They've never really communicated, certainly not in the 4 or 5 years that I've been around these parts; they would post more frequently but they've never said "ok so we're working <this> but had <this> problem and it would take about <this> long to fix or that they've dropped that idea or whatever.

Quote :There is no rule. Anyone can interact with customers how they please. You don't like the current way the devs are working because it doesn't suit YOU. They don't have to tell anyone about delays, progress or future plans. When they do, it gets mocked or blown out of all proportion.

There's no rules - but* working in the public sector I know there's ways you need to interact with your customers; and silence is not one. Just look at the meltdown of BBM the other week - RIM didn't say ANYTHING to the customer base for nearly 48 hours. People were fuming. If you're stuck at a trainstation and your train doesn't arrive, you'd want to know it's 2 hours later rather than nothing....

Quote :If S3 never comes, or LFS never gets updated again (both of which I believe to be false) then nobody has really lost anything. It just means that that netKar Pro has less competition as the best simulator out there.

From README.txt:
Quote :By installing this software you agree to the following :

- Live for Speed is in continual development. Features may be
added, updated or removed at any time. Some functional but
incomplete features may be included in order to enhance the
variety and content of the simulator.

You buy LFS as it is and there is no warranty that new updates have to come.
that's it...we're all on the same ship anyway...
I'm going to donate my life savings to LFS
Quote from S14 DRIFT :Because the userbase does not know what is going on with a project in which they invested (bought a license) and what to play.

It's not an investment. And they can play it.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :They've never really communicated, certainly not in the 4 or 5 years that I've been around these parts; they would post more frequently but they've never said "ok so we're working <this> but had <this> problem and it would take about <this> long to fix or that they've dropped that idea or whatever.

Obviously your idea of communicating and mine are different. Scawen used to frequently post about stuff. Not in the "progress report" kind of way that they don't want to do, but just general interaction within the community. What you want - a running commentary of the development process - isn't what the devs want to do.
Quote from S14 DRIFT :There's no rules - but* working in the public sector I know there's ways you need to interact with your customers; and silence is not one. Just look at the meltdown of BBM the other week - RIM didn't say ANYTHING to the customer base for nearly 48 hours. People were fuming. If you're stuck at a trainstation and your train doesn't arrive, you'd want to know it's 2 hours later rather than nothing....

Blackberry are slightly different to a small racing simulator. And transport home on a scheduled service is rather different than a small racing simulator, so your examples are invalid. LFS is also private sector, so nerrr!

The devs did communicate. Then they slipped on a date (which was never ever promised), all hell let loose, and they decided to shut up. I still don't blame them. The reasons for the delay of the car aren't crystal clear to us mere mortals, but I'm sure there are valid reasons, and I'm sure when the time is right the various updates, be they graphical, physical or content related, will turn up. Probably in a better leap than was expected (but that's just conjecture on my part).

Being annoyed won't help. You'll get an email when something happens. If you don't want to play LFS in the mean time, then don't. If you don't want to take part in the community then don't. If you don't even want to visit here, then don't. You are allowed to do other stuff. Complaining won't improve the situation - if anything it'll make it worse. Be positive. Be patient.
<rant>
Forgive me if any of this is wrong or "mis-remembered" but...

The reason why the devs gave up regular and (presunably) well paid jobs is that they felt that their work would be of higher quality (and life more enjoyable and rewarding) if they didn't have to work to deadlines and satisfy shareholders - that releasing things when they were ready, not when it was planned by the managememnt or marketing teams would result in purer and more satisfying results.

This is why LFS is so good - they take a step back and work out how it should be done, then do it right (no matter how long it takes). While other games go down the blind alley of switch-based physics (spreadsheet sims) the LFS team are taking the long road and if they are right then we will all benefit.

I feel just as frustrated as many people but putting pressure on the devs is almost as bad as taking them back to those bad old corporate days. In the meantime we have great sim which is very playable and has great tracks and severeral well balanced car classes, all of which are fun to drive.

Also, if they rushed-out new physics which required new setups and reset all LFS World records and it was wrong - then they would have to change the physics again (new setups & LFSW stats) six months or more later which would be a nightmare.

Here's hoping that ScaViEr are just as inspired and motivated as ever and that an epic patch is just around the corner.

(Scawen - any pics of new content would be greatly appreciated ).
You *might* get a new car and a new track. Maybe. I am sorry for the guys who have hopes of better LFS. But no - we will never see more decent real life tracks. And the tracks make the race sim. I had tons of fun playing on real life tracks on rFactor. I do see the point of that, since they exist and i am hoping to make a few laps on some of them someday. I have made a lot of BW laps, almost all in the XFG - LFS used to amuse me with it's great feel but that's it. I want real tracks. I want monza, nordschleife, spa, laguna seca, donington etc. That's a good reason i haven't bought the game yet - i have waited for some development, didn't got it, stopped playing, i won't buy it. I want real hillclimbs, exciting cars. Since of the LFS politics of not letting community track creations, we will never get such things. If there was a way i can drive in lfs on the Nordschleife - i am buying it this second. It will be totally worth it. I don't care who created the track - if it feels good and accurate - i am buying it.

I am waiting for rFactor 2 - at least that's a sim i know it will be good, and know that it is being developed. In fact i will preorder it as soon as i can.
Who says LFS won't allow Track creation in the future? IIRC it was mentioned probably over 5 years ago that S3 would be the stage where they would introduce this feature. I guess it would be quite far along the s3 path, but I see no reason for them not to do it.
We do not see 100 tracks (actually, I have not counted all combinations), 70 cars and weather changes every 2 minutes in LFS. In my opinion, this is gold. Thank Scavier for that! The fact that we have a limited set of cars and tracks with a pretty advanced modeling technique implemented still makes LFS fun. Because it still simulates roughly how you drive a car! And you are forced to spend time on getting to know both the car and track in combination. Just as in real life. I never get bored racing on the same track with the same car IRL. So what is it with all this hystaria about new tracks and cars anyway?

My advice is to get a proper PC wheel/gearbox/pedals/clutch setup for those that still drive with kb/mouse/joystick/other controller. It will turn LFS into a different world from what you are used to. At least it did so for me. If you have a proper wheel hardware and still complain, I'd suggest you develop a better sim yourself, pm Scaven about your magnificent code, or keep to the real tracks... (sorry for being a smartass, but I havn't comented for a long while )

No offence, we are all different, and wish to see this and that according to our own ego. Maybe I'm just patient.
I do have a wheel. I do think that the physics and the feel are great. The game just misses real tracks. Badly. Silverstone by far would not fix that. Besides - the guys who don't want new tracks wouldn't download them. It's simple. Community tracks and multiplayer can play together nicely, too - just there could be 2 master servers - one for the original stuff, other for the community tracks. That way the guys who want lfs to be like it is now wouldn't complain.

Look at the old news http://www.lfs.net/?page=oldernews
LFS was being developed back then. It was nice.

[Merged] Discussion regarding LFS development
(1577 posts, started )
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