You guys are right, I concede. Because you showed video proof of the best drivers in the world drifting the F1 cars, I must concede that anyone can.

Further more, even though the FZ50 hasn't really changed at all, and has to pretty much be drifted around a track, and can be by anyone with a few minutes of practice (Just like in Real life right???), the physics are great!

And you're also right, that the thread title is so inflamatory that reading the well reasoned contents of the first post are beyond each and every one of you.

And I am 100% right when I say that you people that blindly say each and every physics improvement is correct even though there are big changes are insane. You guys are the reason the devs haven't seen it fit to overhaul the physics to the level of Netkar, because each time they develop an improvement it takes months before people get the balls to criticize anything, and months after that for them to convince the devs that they were wrong in saying that S1's (for example) physics were right.

Well, you didn't really think making a thread that says physics are still "f*cked up beyond all recognition" earns you any respect or starts a serious debate, did you?

Now you get all sarcastic "oh all you fanboys" but what reaction do you think would happen if I'd go to <insert your favourite sim>'s forum and say their physics model is f*cked up? What you did was an insult, not starting a meaningful debate. And is there anything backing up your claims besides "I say so"?

Maybe it's better if you just leave these forums and LFS alltogether and go to your beloved nKP, because this non-constructive kind of criticism doesn't help anyone at all. But if you start to realise that nKP is far from perfect either, don't use the same form of criticism like here - I heard they don't let that much go through on RSC.

[/rant]

Quote from Dethred :

And I am 100% right when I say that you people that blindly say each and every physics improvement is correct even though there are big changes are insane. You guys are the reason the devs haven't seen it fit to overhaul the physics to the level of Netkar, because each time they develop an improvement it takes months before people get the balls to criticize anything, and months after that for them to convince the devs that they were wrong in saying that S1's (for example) physics were right.

From everythin ive read on here, hardly anyone is saying the physics are perfect. Everyone is saying that the physics are better than they were before the patch. I agree the physics are better, they are not perfect but they are better. From all ive read in this thread alone people are saying the physics are good and are better than pre patch physics. Everyone is replying to the the fact it was said the physics are fubar. This is not saying the patch is perfect, this is saying the patch is an update and is better.

IMHO the physics are better, i feel more connected to the road so to speak. I havent really had much time to play lfs since the patch, so i havent really found the limit either. And so i havent reli got a conclusion or a good feel for the physics. But i think you have to agree they are a step in the right direction.

Quote from Dethred :

Its a step in the right direction, but seriously, why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?

Who is Kunos?

The developer of nKPro.

I didn't even know what FUBAR meant before, but yes I agree that using that acronym is not intelligent criticism especially in the world of journalist writing.

Alright, I read every single post in this thread and the conclusion I come to is that none of us, including me, should complain or rate the physics unless we have personally driven F1 cars in racing conditions (meaning driving to the limits of the car on a track).

The closest thing I can think of having a decent racing experience is to attend Skip Barber Racing School 3 day at your local track (Around $3000) license session and then race in the races they hold for the licensed racers to gain experience.

I am just a wannabe racing driver, when I play simulation racing games, so I do not want to add fuel to the fire. I do not have the credentials to rate the physics to the point of being nitpicky, but I can generally rate it in terms of the limited experience I have had.

Eventually, I plan to go into the racing world in real life, but it's so hard to do so. You need money, connections with people in the industry, skills and a bit of luck. That is probably why people bought this simulation game because of the cost difference of doing it in real life, but please don't be so nitpicky about the racing physics in any game unless you have had extensive experience doing it in real life.

The only racing experience I have is driving my dinky car to the limit when no other car is around and the racing drifting go karts at www.ssspeedways.com. I have a neck injury from the fact that let kids drive these fast, heavy (for a go kart), dirfting cars from a heads on collision that still bothers me even from doing that last December. I was so angry at the ~8 year old looking kid, but that is another story.

I do agree that Richard Burns Rally (RBR) has some pretty darn good physics. When I watch the replays, my brain sometimes gets confused as whether this is a game. It's too bad that Eidos who bought SCi Games will not make any more patches since the family of Richard Burns did not want the game to be continued after his death. I found this out after contacting Eidos on further development of RBR.

I also think that Gran Turismo seriers needs to revamp the physics engine that is geared for the mass crowd. Especially when the box reads "The Real Driving Simulator". I still enjoy the game, though. The people who work at Polyphony Digital seem to love cars as much as we do from the tour videos I saw at IGN, but I think they are holding back. Maybe until PlayStation 3, when they have more power available to them to do complex physics calculations.

Quote from Gargantula :

It's too bad that Eidos who bought SCi Games will not make any more patches since the family of Richard Burns did not want the game to be continued after his death. I found this out after contacting Eidos on further development of RBR.

What? illepall Eidos' reply to you really said so? That's some big bullshit from Eidos... Or course it's true that Richard Burns' death meant that we're not going to see a sequel to RBR, but I think it was pretty sure that there was never going to be a real sequel (or probably the publisher SCi Games could have done some arcade rally game called RBR2, just to make some money with a good name). SCi games was just the publisher but the dev team Warthog was bought by Gizmondo portable console company last year (and the Gizmondo company made a bankrupt recently). Last RBR patch was released in year 2004, after the game's PC release. I think RBR just didn't sell well enough which lead to this. The dev team had some big troubles with the publisher. I've understood from I've read that publisher wanted it to be a way more arcadish game, so we must be very glad that it even turned out to be one of the greatest sims ever.

But luckily the RBR physics guru Eero Piitulainen is making a new sime called Racecom. Not rally game though but we'll hear about that in the future...

Sorry, I know this was off topic but that Eidos' bullshit reply was just so interesting.

Quote :

as difficult as driving a real car on the limit.

I'm too lazy to read all of this post this late at night so I appologise now if my argument has already been raised.

Driving a real car on the limit is not difficult. If you have experienced it, you can do it again, in another car and on another track is just a matter of a bit of top up practice.

However every persons limit is different and there's no such this as "the fastest possible limit".

As for the original argument, show a replay of you drifting a BF1 and posting the same sector times as you can drive it normally. That will backup your argument.

I'm then totally confident that some smug git will post a replay that makes you look like a muppet.

Sorry. -1

The physics may not be perfect, infact I think i've got too much grip now, but they're damned good.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Driving a real car on the limit is not difficult. If you have experienced it, you can do it again, in another car and on another track is just a matter of a bit of top up practice.

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

Quote from Blowtus :

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

Yes, road cars specially are too, hmm, stable? when sliding and as speed reduces it seem to slide until stops, slide should stop before speed, imo. Of course some situations it stops sliding before car stops but rarely, also 180-degree handbrake turn is one that feels wrong, somehow slow and dull.

Road cars also are too easy at limit, don't know why but here again too stable, any car manufacturer would really be proud if his low cost pocket rocket would have such handling at high speeds and when pulling that 1g at corners.

F1 cars and those I'm not even very interested, haven't driven those so can't really say anything, fast hands needed that is needed in reallife.

With old version we had road cars that were not so stable at high speeds, specially braking into corner was good, but now car feels bit glued to track.

I must say that for me it feels now more arcade, but I can't say that it is not improved also I can't say if those are improved, maybe improved yes but something else needs improving too to get this improvement to work properly.

the dynamics are definately much improved... it probably feels a little easy because the 'bad physics' that made it hard before are improved, but the 'bad physics' that make it easy to control are still around. As far as I can see anyway.

Quote from Blowtus :

Dethred is talking about going over the limit. Some cars this is very straightforward, others can bite fairly hard. Every car in LFS is very easy to regather after a slide, the mrt is probably the most challenging.

I dunno about the car with slicks, but for the road cars it's pretty much right, if you consider the fact that they are on a generic "race" setting, and the lack of chassis flex/aerodynamic inconsistency in LFS. Cars like GTi and RB4 are indeed very straight foward, however the rear wheel drive cars especially the FZ5 is quite challenging when you try to modulate the weight tranfer with the brakes, a slight difference in input does make the difference between a nice positioned turn or an off balanced one, and if you push really hard all car exhibits such sensitivity although to a different degree.

no, you're missing the point. I agree that the 'normal' driving aspects feel pretty damn good, requires care to balance it well for fast times. I also see Dethred's point that slide correction isn't violent enough, tyres tend to stop sliding gently instead of suddenly. Don't see why he makes such a big fuss about it, the racing is still fantastic, and the right things still have to be done for fast times, but it does seem like a fair point.

Quote from deggis :

Sorry, I know this was off topic but that Eidos' bullshit reply was just so interesting.

Yeah, I figured they just didn't want to do RBR ever again and that family thing was an excuse. It sucks that all that crap happenned to the developer and the pubilsher. I would have loved to see the sim continue onward to another installment.

Quote from Dethred :

Its a step in the right direction, but seriously, why not ask Kunos what he does to get it right?

all i'm asking kunos is to give me my money back!

but i guess he is too busy to answer because he is trying to "get it right" and it's such a long way to go... illepall

Quote from inCogNito :

all i'm asking kunos is to give me my money back!

but i guess he is too busy to answer because he is trying to "get it right" and it's such a long way to go... illepall

Um, who cares? Kunos at least has the physics down pat. He didn't hype the sound system and some of the other things, reviews did that for him.

Dethred, read Kunos' developer diaries - he hyped them pretty all he could get away with in them!

Quote from mrodgers :

With the title of the thread, "Physics still FUBAR", I don't think the discussion started with someone saying that "there is further developing" to do. It certainly sounds like whining and complaining to me.

Same as i thought reading this ...