The online racing simulator
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4436 posts, closed, started )
Quote from Dac :So why can't he just be honest and say development is slow because we just don't care about our users think/want?

Slight repeat of what has been said above but I would assume that there is enough people who play LFS who have bought into the 'indie' development route over the mass market one and for this do understand the time delays. So maybe it is more that there is enough people on these forums who think in the same way as Scavier and so are happier to wait.

I will also say, while I have no idea about programming I have done my fair share of CAD modelling and you get looks of people of "it took you how long!?!" So while I don't understand programming I can appreciate how long things can take to do, and to do properly.
Quote from Greboth :
I will also say, while I have no idea about programming I have done my fair share of CAD modelling and you get looks of people of "it took you how long!?!" So while I don't understand programming I can appreciate how long things can take to do, and to do properly.

Bang on, its my trade, and you wouldn't believe the amount of people who think you press a button and the computer does it all for you...........and thats my boss!!!!!
Lets hope LFS does die off a bit, the servers are too full of retards and the forums are too full of whingers, we could really do with losing some of them. I'll still be lapping Blackwood no matter what anyone does or says. :mischievo
Quote from Dac :Look at the facts, weeks and weeks months and months years and years and yet no updates. It doesn't take much to realise nothing is or at least has been happening.

I'd just like to pick up on the bold bits above.

Dac, if you are going to use the word facts you should make sure the facts you are listing are accurate. Now correct me if I'm wrong here but the last patch was July '08? It is now March '10 so the number of years hasn't even reached the point where you can use a plurel yet, let alone add "and years" which to most people means many years.
Quote from menantoll :I'd just like to pick up on the bold bits above.

Dac, if you are going to use the word facts you should make sure the facts you are listing are accurate. Now correct me if I'm wrong here but the last patch was July '08? It is now March '10 so the number of years hasn't even reached the point where you can use a plurel yet, let alone add "and years" which to most people means many years.

The latest patch was released on November 25 in 2009.
Quote from Flame CZE :The latest patch was released on November 25 in 2009.

IMO that were not worthy a title of it's own patch. Call it a hotfix, minor enchantment or something, but not a patch.

BUT! : Either way I do not worry, because I'm drunk and satisfied. Done when done (please don't kill me).
Quote from Flame CZE :The latest patch was released on November 25 in 2009.

My point about it not being years would still stand though
Quote from menantoll :My point about it not being years would still stand though

Just to be a jackass, not being to serious though:

It's now 2010, last real patch was in 2008.
What I learned in school is that 2 or more should be yearS.

Quote from rockclan :Just to be a jackass, not being to serious though:

It's now 2010, last real patch was in 2008.
What I learned in school is that 2 or more should be yearS.


to be the nice guy...

plans change, problems occure, life happens

Where iz hte patch?!

On a serious note, LFS will rock us all!! And there is nothing we can do about it!!
Quote from rockclan :Just to be a jackass, not being to serious though:

It's now 2010, last real patch was in 2008.
What I learned in school is that 2 or more should be yearS.


Just to be a jackass, not being to serious either:

Read my post properly, I mention the actual months.

July 08 to March 10 <> 2 years.

Back at ya

My point was, if he is going to use the word facts then he needs to be accurate.
Quote from Flame CZE :The latest patch was released on November 25 in 2009.

he means a patch that makes a HUGE difference to the game not just a bit more eye candy (dashboard lights) and a few more mods, basically stuff we didnt mention lol

EDIT: The VE are you like a raging alcoholic lol alot of your posts mention you being drunk xD respect!
*facepalm*

scawen said he has to clear his mind because he cant think exactly what he needs to do, or what equation might work, or something along those lines
Quote from logitekg25 :Scawen said he has to clear his mind because he cant think exactly what he needs to do, or what equation might work, or something along those lines

The key post is here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1390254#post1390254

The issue is that reality got in the way of whatever simplifying assumptions he made when creating the original tire model. The failures are occuring in "extreme situations", that turned out not to be that rare.

My guess is that the failures that occur in "extreme situations" exposed a weakness in the core mathematical model, and having to re-implement a new model from scratch is why it's taking so long. Plus there's the issue that a new model may suffer from similar weaknesses at the extremes, so you get stuck in a trial and error cycle with variations on the mathematical models, which is very time consuming.

The only other individual I'm aware of trying to do a similar thing is Todd Wasson, and I'm not sure if he ever achieved what he was trying to accomplish with his tire model.

Most complex mathematical models involve tables of data obtained from experiments, to be used as coefficients in equations (typically differential equations) but I don't know if any such data would be available to a small game developer, and if any data exists for the problematic "extreme situations".

Anyway, I hope he finally gets something to work and is able to continue.
Quote from J03130 :he means a patch that makes a HUGE difference to the game not just a bit more eye candy (dashboard lights) and a few more mods, basically stuff we didnt mention lol

Actually its not eye candy to me but it really made a difference. A lot of people drive with lights on now, there where some beatifications yes and that always is good to make the game look better and UDP hostlist and seeing who is actually driving on a server is a good improvement.

Sure, it are tiny improvements but better than none. People talk about it, news sites pick it up, its promotion and promotion generates more drivers.

I think this tyre model thing has became an obsession, like an obstacle that needs to be taken.. But what it really does is causing infinite delays. I don't say he has to abandon it but giving it less attention would not be a bad idea.

Yes, concentrate for 20% on the little eye candy, improve little things. I don't care, any visible progress is progress.

And let the rest here just whine, most LFS racers are a bunch of whiners anyway. Sorry
Quote from JeffR :The key post is here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1390254#post1390254

The issue is that reality got in the way of whatever simplifying assumptions he made when creating the original tire model. The failures are occuring in "extreme situations", that turned out not to be that rare.

My guess is that the failures that occur in "extreme situations" exposed a weakness in the core mathematical model, and having to re-implement a new model from scratch is why it's taking so long. Plus there's the issue that a new model may suffer from similar weaknesses at the extremes, so you get stuck in a trial and error cycle with variations on the mathematical models, which is very time consuming.

The only other individual I'm aware of trying to do a similar thing is Todd Wasson, and I'm not sure if he ever achieved what he was trying to accomplish with his tire model.

Most complex mathematical models involve tables of data obtained from experiments, to be used as coefficients in equations (typically differential equations) but I don't know if any such data would be available to a small game developer, and if any data exists for the problematic "extreme situations".

Anyway, I hope he finally gets something to work and is able to continue.

I guess you are right. It's no problem to me that it takes its time to build up a new tyre model. But I still don't get, why there is no content release. It's been years that they planned to release the cockpits. Some cars are still in S1 stage. RB4, MRT and UF1. And we are racing on the same tracks since 5 years (ok 2 new variations appeared, but to me, this doesn't really satisfy me). This makes me worry about the future of our beloved LFS.
But this is already said a hundred times and never changed anything.
I haven't posted anything here for quite sometime. Thought I come back when there's something new. But hey, it's been just too long.

I'm not whining or anything. I don't care about LFS anymore. Bought the G25 only for this game and now it's collecting dust... but life has other things to offer.

ANYWAY... the basic feeling I get when I look at the development is: We're all being fooled. LFS development is dead but pretended to be still alive so licenses can still be sold at the same price as years ago (seriously, if you buy a license now, it is so freaking overpriced it hurts).

What tells you that it isn't so?
Come on guys there must be other games you play then just LFS. I too want Lfs to be updated but i just check every week or so to see if any new updates.
Dude, I joined like 6 years before you, try to play the shame thing for 6 years
Nah, heres a hug

A teaser or something of the work so far would be great, even if it were WIP.
Of course is perfect that he leaves LFS for a moment because his personal life, that´s understandable. But to slightly satisfy LFS drivers worldwide comunity, i think Scawen should open some part of the code lo let the many people that has time to dedicate (that´s real, look at those mods, addons and so, with allmost any tool, lots of things had been created) only to modify limited car behaviour and to create tracks. Not mayor change, so stats don´t be in lfsworld (may be some insim to do the job), but only for not letting LFS die. Of course, add some kind of checksum of tracks and car to avoid cheating... and that´s all. Scawen will continue mayor work in LFS when he has time, and the rest of small changes will be done by the comunity... just an idea...
im pretty sure i heard somewhere if a coder dies then the project never gets finished, not hinting at anything...but getting to a point :hide: if he dies i will probably get blamed and arrested

opening the code to other people would not work, every programmer has a different way of doing things, and if you start having many people doing things all different ways, then it gets messy.
Quote from Bandit77 : (seriously, if you buy a license now, it is so freaking overpriced it hurts).

Overpriced?

Two Mac Donalds menu's and you are still hungry. I think the pricing is reasonable.
Quote from Bandit77 :it is so freaking overpriced it hurts

I'm sure you said that for dramatic effect. I have always thought and still think LFS is remarkable value for money.

You must not have got into any other serious sims to have that view, I've spent hundreds on scenery packs for flight sims and think iRacing is reasonable value for money for what I get out of it, so in comparison LFS price of admission is trivial I know every one is not equal in regards to their financial situation but even with that in consideration LFS is a very cheap means of getting that racing feeling.
LFS players knew all along that it was a small development team, and early on, many of the LFS fans seemed to be proud of the fact that the development team was so small. It was obvious to a few of us that this would result in a slow development cycle, and I was considered a pessimist when back in 2005 soon after S2 release when I estimated that S3 would get released sometime in 2009. This probably would have happened if it wasn't for the setback with the tire physics. Also S2 ended up with a bit more content than some of us expected, so what we have now is more like S2.5, compared to what S2 was back in 2005.

I don't see the Scirocco as a big deal. It's a front wheel drive econobox, not exactly an exciting car.

Actually I'm a bit surprised that they're willing to re-implement the tire physics model for S2 now rather than just live with the current model and save the physics re-do for S3, since each stage was originally planned to include physics improvments.

Other than the Scirocco, I'm not sure what else was planned to be included with S2, if anything, beyond what we have now, so maybe consider the tire physics re-do as a preview of S3.

Again, the physics re-do seems like a monumental task, I just hope they eventually get something implemented that they're happy with.
Quote from dac :everybody else knows he hasn't been doing jack **** .............
There's no need for personal insults here anybody who does resort to such shouldn't be listened to.

oh, i hear you.
This thread is closed

[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4436 posts, closed, started )
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