I don't think McLaren will put anything on their car not 'cleared' by the FIA first.
wouldn't stop others from protesting through~
It will probably be at least borderline legal
I havent seen this mentioned anywhere on here, but its something that ive had in my mind the last 2 races and seeing as were 4 races in now, wondered if anyone else has recognised this little tidbit about 1 driver this season....
Midrace Overtakes*
R1| Bahrain = 0
R2| Australia = 0
R3| Malaysia = 1
R4| China = 1
2010 Total = 2
* Passes from Lap 2 onwards (simply because the grid start isnt quite the same thing, and i can better vouch for/verify passes after T1), excluding pit lane passes, mechanical failure, crashes, or moves which dont stick (eg throwing it down the inside and looking a tit)... basically anything i can verify on the FIA website or by memory.
Theres only 1 driver ive noticed who can claim such pathetic statistics, whilst also being able to say he's completed every single lap of every GP this season, he cant blame reliability, a lack of competitiveness of his car, a lack of experience, or anything other than modern F1 cars being hopeless for overtaking (though this hasnt stopped his teammate).
For those of you who are unaware of who im refering to, i'd like to introduce to you to.... the current drivers standings leader, the reigning WDC champion wearing the 1 on his car and 2 race wins so far, Mr Jenson Button MBE!
Crazy really, certainly wouldnt think it looking at the standings or just going off race results alone. He's been passed by Hamilton twice, both in the opening 2 laps of the race when he's started at least 3 places behind him (Lap 2 @ Melbourne 11th passing 4th, and T1 @ Sepang 20th passing 17th) and Hamilton has made around 10 successful passes this season showing the car is quite capable.
It highlights how significant some of the decisions Button has made, but also how utterly incapable he is of RACING. Last season he had combo of fastest & most reliable car of the season, and for the most part won races without much effort or need to overtake people. He might be a good driver, but he's a rubbish racer compared to many world champions of years gone by. FTR im not a Button hater, i just think he was a very lucky chap last season and who's now out of his depth when he needs to make something happen with the modern F1 car's lack of overtaking opportunities. I'd hope he'd improve, and with the updates to the car to hopefully address the aero/df issues it might give him something he's happier with and able to pass people with, afterall with the 'F-Duct' it should be easier as long as they have a car that allows them to use it for speed rather than balancing out their high DF setting to make it evenly balanced... but i dont think he has that streak in him like Alonso, Hamilton or Schumi (circa 2000).
Anyone interested in first lap stats Button is at +/-0 (0, -2, +2, 0) compared to Hamiltons +10 (-1, +4, +7, 0) in the opening lap alone, so im not removing compelling stats in his favour.
Midrace Overtakes*
R1| Bahrain = 0
R2| Australia = 0
R3| Malaysia = 1
R4| China = 1
2010 Total = 2
* Passes from Lap 2 onwards (simply because the grid start isnt quite the same thing, and i can better vouch for/verify passes after T1), excluding pit lane passes, mechanical failure, crashes, or moves which dont stick (eg throwing it down the inside and looking a tit)... basically anything i can verify on the FIA website or by memory.
Theres only 1 driver ive noticed who can claim such pathetic statistics, whilst also being able to say he's completed every single lap of every GP this season, he cant blame reliability, a lack of competitiveness of his car, a lack of experience, or anything other than modern F1 cars being hopeless for overtaking (though this hasnt stopped his teammate).
For those of you who are unaware of who im refering to, i'd like to introduce to you to.... the current drivers standings leader, the reigning WDC champion wearing the 1 on his car and 2 race wins so far, Mr Jenson Button MBE!
Crazy really, certainly wouldnt think it looking at the standings or just going off race results alone. He's been passed by Hamilton twice, both in the opening 2 laps of the race when he's started at least 3 places behind him (Lap 2 @ Melbourne 11th passing 4th, and T1 @ Sepang 20th passing 17th) and Hamilton has made around 10 successful passes this season showing the car is quite capable.
It highlights how significant some of the decisions Button has made, but also how utterly incapable he is of RACING. Last season he had combo of fastest & most reliable car of the season, and for the most part won races without much effort or need to overtake people. He might be a good driver, but he's a rubbish racer compared to many world champions of years gone by. FTR im not a Button hater, i just think he was a very lucky chap last season and who's now out of his depth when he needs to make something happen with the modern F1 car's lack of overtaking opportunities. I'd hope he'd improve, and with the updates to the car to hopefully address the aero/df issues it might give him something he's happier with and able to pass people with, afterall with the 'F-Duct' it should be easier as long as they have a car that allows them to use it for speed rather than balancing out their high DF setting to make it evenly balanced... but i dont think he has that streak in him like Alonso, Hamilton or Schumi (circa 2000).
Anyone interested in first lap stats Button is at +/-0 (0, -2, +2, 0) compared to Hamiltons +10 (-1, +4, +7, 0) in the opening lap alone, so im not removing compelling stats in his favour.
I see what you mean, but I think he's made a couple good decisions which put him in a position where he didn't need to pass. Boring maybe, but even Hamilton admits it's successful. Still, Hamilton has been more interesting to watch. I wonder what would happen if they gave points for overtaking...
If the red bull's had not kept breaking, they would be far ahead of everyone with no overtakes (pole to finish).
I'm not trying to argue with you, just stating some observations.
You forgot about all the passes Button made last season just to get into the points? Hamilton had a lot of passes this year because he found himself in the back of the pack for two occasion, with bad qualifying and screwed up tactics.
It highlights how Jenson hasn't NEEDED to race because he isn't a brainless oaf like Lewis. Jenson has been described by some rival team personal as "one of the best overtakers in the business". But why drop down to last and fight your way up when you don't have to??
it's very hard to make any passes when you are in first place, though i do take the point about being passed by hamilton twice but tris also has a good point in that button hasn't been in a position to need to make a lot of passes.
what is significant is that his two wins have been as the result of very astute / brave tyre choices, also that despite having 2 wins to hamiltons 0 and the new points system being designed to favour winners, button is not that far in front of hamilton which could be interpreted as when button's good, he's really good but when there's a problem he's not able to make the best of it. given that luck etc tends to balance out (unless your webber as he must be due a season where every other car breaksdown every race) it'll be intersting to see if button retains his advantage strategically over hamilton or if hamilton will benefit from some good calls.
edit: the first lap stats don't prove sod all either as vettel's must look pretty poor on that score
what is significant is that his two wins have been as the result of very astute / brave tyre choices, also that despite having 2 wins to hamiltons 0 and the new points system being designed to favour winners, button is not that far in front of hamilton which could be interpreted as when button's good, he's really good but when there's a problem he's not able to make the best of it. given that luck etc tends to balance out (unless your webber as he must be due a season where every other car breaksdown every race) it'll be intersting to see if button retains his advantage strategically over hamilton or if hamilton will benefit from some good calls.
edit: the first lap stats don't prove sod all either as vettel's must look pretty poor on that score
Button has had two good tyre decisions but he still lacks fundamental race speed in dry races (Malaysia and Bahrain anyone?) and when we get to Europe Vettel will just disappear into the distance.
Don't forget Button was one of the very few drivers who managed to pass a KERS equipped McLaren last year. And don't forget what happened at Brazil last year.
Button put himself into a position of not having to pass many people and still win, which Lewis obviously failed badly at that.
At the end of the day, it's winning (be it a race, and as well as the Championship) that's ultimately the most important, and Button had put himself in a great position to be in. Won two out of the first four races, and leading the world championship. He earned it himself the SMART and the EASY (comparatively) way.
Button put himself into a position of not having to pass many people and still win, which Lewis obviously failed badly at that.
At the end of the day, it's winning (be it a race, and as well as the Championship) that's ultimately the most important, and Button had put himself in a great position to be in. Won two out of the first four races, and leading the world championship. He earned it himself the SMART and the EASY (comparatively) way.
But to be slightly fair to him, he was stuck behind Schumacher in Bahrain. Just ask Lewis how hard it's to pass a Merc-engined car in normal dry condition. Despite Lewis brilliance at passing people this year, he couldn't pass Rosberg in the opening stint of Bahrain, and was stuck behind a Force India in Malaysia.
And in Malaysia Button pitted extremely early, and has to nurse his tyres for 50 odd laps, but it's also this pitting early that saved him from having to make passes on the track, he jumped a lot of people with that strategy.
I'm not saying Button is as good as Prost, but Prost never had that fundamental raw speed either. He was the tortoise to everyone elses (Senna) hare. And in an era of vastly more mechanical problems he won a lot of races with it. Finishing races isn't just about raw speed, and winning championships isn't just about being the fastest thing on 4 wheels - just ask Vettel and Red Bull about that...
Will Jenson beat Hamilton in the championship? No, I don't think so. For all the moronic things Lewis says and does, and no matter how much of a robot he is in interviews, or how often he cheats or how often he lies, Lewis is better at man handling an ill car. And that ability alone will propel him above Jenson in the standings, on the basis that race cars spend more time being a bit crap than being perfect.
But when the car is perfect, or the conditions are changeable, Lewis won't see which way Jenson went....
Will Jenson beat Hamilton in the championship? No, I don't think so. For all the moronic things Lewis says and does, and no matter how much of a robot he is in interviews, or how often he cheats or how often he lies, Lewis is better at man handling an ill car. And that ability alone will propel him above Jenson in the standings, on the basis that race cars spend more time being a bit crap than being perfect.
But when the car is perfect, or the conditions are changeable, Lewis won't see which way Jenson went....
I disagree, i think Lewis in a perfect car is still faster than Jenson. None of us have any evidence to prove this anyway, when Jenson had a perfect car, Lewis had a shit one. But when the McLaren was good in 2007 and 2008 he still beat the the most consistantly fast driver on the grid in his rookie season.
BTW I'd rather support a media robot than a driving robot. Jenson really does not do anything for me, his driving is boring and that's what racing is about right, the driving and the racing? Lewis hammers Jenson in both, what happens off the field i really couldn't care about. You can't really blame him either, when he is honest and speaks his mind he gets battered by everyone for saying things he shouldn't, i'd be a media robot too just to keep the peace.
BTW I'd rather support a media robot than a driving robot. Jenson really does not do anything for me, his driving is boring and that's what racing is about right, the driving and the racing? Lewis hammers Jenson in both, what happens off the field i really couldn't care about. You can't really blame him either, when he is honest and speaks his mind he gets battered by everyone for saying things he shouldn't, i'd be a media robot too just to keep the peace.
This Lewis Vs Jenson debate will be fruitless. The real story is how Vettel hasn't stacked up 100 points. HOW?
Jenson is as good as they come at his peak. Ask anyone in the F1 paddock...
Lewis is a product of McLaren, rather than a normal human being. Listen to him, both in front of the media and on his radio. Jenson does at least have a personality (which, as you say, has both good aspects and bad aspects). If you can't see the sheer ability in Jenson's style, boring as it may be, then you'll clearly never appreciate motorsport at any level.
He get's battered for speaking his mind because he has no mind. As soon as he tries to be himself, he says the stupidest things you'll ever hear an F1 driver say. So he either has to be "total twat" or "McLaren product (which is only slightly less twattish)". Not a great deal of choice.
E: Re Vettel comment from Alan - Reliability, youthful impetulance and strategic errors.
Lewis is a product of McLaren, rather than a normal human being. Listen to him, both in front of the media and on his radio. Jenson does at least have a personality (which, as you say, has both good aspects and bad aspects). If you can't see the sheer ability in Jenson's style, boring as it may be, then you'll clearly never appreciate motorsport at any level.
He get's battered for speaking his mind because he has no mind. As soon as he tries to be himself, he says the stupidest things you'll ever hear an F1 driver say. So he either has to be "total twat" or "McLaren product (which is only slightly less twattish)". Not a great deal of choice.
E: Re Vettel comment from Alan - Reliability, youthful impetulance and strategic errors.
And that's why everyone was stumbling over him to sign him up for 2010!
Jenson is very good but that statement doesn't actually correlate with the team's actual behaviour (actual money on the table and not just 'talk') in the 2009 silly season.
.. and when have u been a slave to F1 paddock talk considering it's substantial support for karting (which u hate
)?and I guess hardly anyone would have put money on Jenson for leading the World Championship and winning the most races after the first four flyaways...
At least Peter Windsor, the man that has spent years as the editor of F1 Racing magazine but obviously failed in setting up an actual F1 team, seems to think Jenson Button is good.
On the season review issue of the F1 Racing magazine last year, Peter Windsor said a whole lot of stuff about how brilliant he thinks Button is at the "second gear corner", which he claimed now "made up the majority of corners during a F1 season", and how important that is for Jenson to build up that big lead.
How good he actually is at those "second gear corners" I don't really know, but I surely did disagree about his points that it was a fundamental part for him to win so many races, because he hardly get on the podium afterwards.
Martin Brundle's said that Button is an excellent slow corner driver before too. I seem to recall he said that Button wouldn't thank him for it, because all drivers want to be known as the banzai guy in the fastest corners.
But no one thought Massa would be the WDC after three races either
Long way to go yetLike McLaren and Mercedes? The only two top teams that had vacancies?
I don't hate karting. I just recognise that any youngster wants to get out of karts as soon as possible so they can learn how to drive cars again. Nobody would want to do an extra year of karting then they absolutely had to. And maybe F1 drivers play in karts quite a bit, but perhaps that's because it's a bit harder to have a play in F3/GP2/F1 cars whenever you want...... I totally understand the merits of any aspiring 8 year old to be in karts. But if they're still in karts (or at least don't have a contract with a car team) by the time they're about 14 then they don't stand much of a chance of EVER making money or being any good.
E: A long way indeed. And I'm not suggesting for one second that Jenson will still be at the top by the end of the season at all. But then again, I wouldn't have said that last year either....
I must admit he really surprised me in Brazil last year. Seems he can turn it on when he needs to.
Your not understanding me, i don't care what Lewis is like off track, on track he has the biggest personality and i think thats the real him, i don't think the fans have seen the real Lewis yet, he's too concered about how he's coming across etc it doesn't look natural anyway, maybe McLaren want him to be like that.
I don't see how he is a twat either tbh, i sense deep down you have something against him, maybe it's because your jelous? The majority of British people really don't have a bad word to say about him, he has flare, he's exciting to watch, sorry if i prefer the guy that's actually entertaining.
I appreciate all forms of motorsport, but you have to enjoy it, Jensons driving alone doesn't bring me any enjoyment, how can you get excited about how smooth he is? "look dad, look how smooth Jenson is, go Jenson". No.
On track he does a lot of passing, mainly because he puts himself in difficult situations. I don't think that counts as a personality. The not coming across naturally is my very point - he's a product rather than a person.
I'm quite possibly the least jealous person in this thread of Lewis. I'm aware of how bad I am compared to him, but I am racing an F3 car to a reasonable [amateur] standard. If it were jealously, then I'd hate the other, better drivers currently in F1 even more, surely? He is entertaining though, I give you that. I can't think of anyone in the recent (20 year) history of F1 that made life so difficult for himself on a fortnightly basis.
If you can't get excited by Jenson's smoothness, then you are missing out. You clearly have no idea what it takes to drive a car quickly and efficiently, let alone a slicks and wings single seater. One day, maybe, you'll have that epiphany, and motor racing will be 100 times more interesting and exciting for you.
I'm quite possibly the least jealous person in this thread of Lewis. I'm aware of how bad I am compared to him, but I am racing an F3 car to a reasonable [amateur] standard. If it were jealously, then I'd hate the other, better drivers currently in F1 even more, surely? He is entertaining though, I give you that. I can't think of anyone in the recent (20 year) history of F1 that made life so difficult for himself on a fortnightly basis.
If you can't get excited by Jenson's smoothness, then you are missing out. You clearly have no idea what it takes to drive a car quickly and efficiently, let alone a slicks and wings single seater. One day, maybe, you'll have that epiphany, and motor racing will be 100 times more interesting and exciting for you.
That's as much to do with the amount of media he attracts. Other drivers come up with just the same amount of nonsense but it doesn't get anywhere near the amount of coverage. If Hamilton had said this -
"You can write that as big as you want! I'm the world champion and I've got the confidence that brings. I'm driving like a world champion"
- could you imagine the backlash? The forums would go into meltdown.
One lesson I've learnt is to not judge drivers on the way the media in general portrays them because 9 times out of 10 they are way off the mark.
On the subject of Lewis being a person vs product. The problem is it is people persons opinion on it, but for my 2 cents. In my opinion, I don't see how you think Lewis is a product Tristan. Yes Lewis tows the corporate line but no more than any other driver does. He is happy when he wins, admits when he does something wrong and moans when the car is sh*t. Admitadly though there have bee the lies to tarnish his record but overall he is just a proffesional IMO.
On the Button / Hamilton battle though. On a good weekend for both, I am not sure who would win. On a bad weekend then Hamilton I think will always win. I look forward to the race though where both Button and Hamilton have a good weekend to see who come out on top. I do agree with Tristan though about Button being as exciting as Hamilton though.
On the Button / Hamilton battle though. On a good weekend for both, I am not sure who would win. On a bad weekend then Hamilton I think will always win. I look forward to the race though where both Button and Hamilton have a good weekend to see who come out on top. I do agree with Tristan though about Button being as exciting as Hamilton though.
Formula One Season 2010
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